I hate your new theory because it feels plausible enough to be true. I just… I just want somebody in Homestuck to be themselves for once, singular and inviolate.

there is someone like that, in my opinion. it’s caliborn.

so, let me tell you- the moment i started reading your force and flow esseys things started clicking into place for me. i, for one, wasnt a big fan of the widely accepted active-passive scale, and seeing it reworked into a literal scale was what really sparked the ol grey matter! same with the page-knight swap and the serve verb. you compile very well! anyhow, i wanted to ask a question. i know the “destroy” and “steal” sets are already defined- but are there any unifying myths for them you see?

Sort of, loosely, but nothing concrete enough that I feel comfortable presenting it. Thieves and Rogues SEEM to both be linked to the idea of a Pirate or Piracy–The serkets are obvious, but Roxy makes a couple references to internet piracy. As for Prince/Bard…I honestly got nothing. They’re maybe all loosely linked to puppets? They’re all called assholes? Maybe they’re loosely linked to royalty by way of Hussie’s prior adventure, Bard Quest?

I entertain a lot of wild ideas when I’m looking for a new angle on the story, but I don’t actually argue the points unless I have pretty strong evidence drawn directly from the comic–and preferably more than one example for something like this. I was originally not going to present Witch/Heir as ‘Magicians’ early in writing that series for example. I remember being frustrated because according to the trend I was detecting there should have been textual references to magicians or wizardry in the text for Heirs (Witches being the more explicit and literal reference to the myth, which is a running theme as well. A Knight is a straightfoward warrior, a Sylph is a kind of Fairy, a Seer is commonly understood as a Prophet, etc.)

but I couldn’t seem to find them, to the point that I gave up on including that section entirely! Aaaand then I came across the references to WV as a familiar and then found that post by the person who just OUTLINED John as a wizard for me. But my point is I put these points through a lot of scrutiny before I decide to present them, so while I have some loose ideas, my current opinion is that since the Steal and Destroy sets were freebies from the canon, they don’t have unifying myths as such.

Unless, of course, I or someone finds compelling evidence to the contrary in the comic. Which is a possibility I can’t discard–again, it’s exactly what happened for Heirs.

PS: oh by the way thanks a lot! I’m glad you got something out of them 🙂

Have you considered “Vassal” as an alternative to the slightly awkward butler/warrior combo? It manages to convey a broader meaning of servitude than servant, and manages to keep with the 1 word nature of the rest

It sounds awesome, for sure–I’ve been fond of the word vassal since my disgaea days for some reason. I don’t see myself as coming up with this stuff, though–I just go off what I see referenced in Homestuck over and over. But that is definitely a term I hadn’t thought to search in the comic before just now–i’ll do some ctrl+f runs soon and see what pops up.

What are some of the other literary classics and films that you think would fit with Homestucks referential style that weren’t used in the story? One that came to mind for me was Frankenstein.

the great thing about homestuck’s narrative structure is that it builds out from the characters’ interests, thoughts, and personal aesthetics, so theres basically no work of fiction excluded from potential inclusion in the format. like yeah i can definitely see all sorts of characters incorporating the motifs of Frankenstein into a classpect’s narrative (Prince of Life or Sylph of Doom for starters?), or just factoring into a characters personal style and aesthetic–like Jake’s genderbending emulation of action girls.

But like it doesn’t have to be a literary classic or film or anything. Part of the power of this structure is that it allows one to be self-indulgent about incorporating ANYTHING they care about into an oc in whatever way they please. Canon fursona transformations? Sure why not. Giving your character an interest in digimon only to evolve that interest into an ACTUAL DIGIMON through classpect or sprite shenanigans? Whatever, why not! Want your character to unironically dress like a jrpg protagonist from the most decadent anime games? GO for it.

And work whatevers interesting to you about those works’ themes, styles, powersets, etc. into your character if you like, too. the sky is the limit with Sburb’s setup, which could be exploited for personal self-expression way more.

anyway catch me in my sburb session dressed like an utena character with my patamonsprite

You strike me as extremely blind as to how your own experiences and biases cause you to see homestuck as even gayer than it actually is. Don’t get me wrong, homestuck is gay by nature, in the least crude way it say that, but you really lean heavily on how literally everyone is gay and that’s a good thing. People are allowed to have sexual preferences, it shapes who they are. I think you’re seeing phantom gay out of desire to do so, in order to validate your self/worldview.

I’d be curious to know what this means contextually, like no offense anon but this comes off as little more than a vague “But what if the gay you’re seeing…is just IN YOUR MIND” statement that tells me nothing? It’s also kind of a weird point to direct at me specifically given that theres people on this website who think Homestuck would be like, Ideologically Ruined if a boy and a girl held hands, whereas i ship roxygen and johncallieroxy and am in many ways a polyshipper.

yeah I celebrate the gay stuff a lot because it is historically Not Very Appreciated and, idk if you’ve picked this up about me, but I kind of enjoy bringing zealous appreciation for less-than-celebrated things to light. Kind of a focus of my work! I also think Homestuck is a lot better about canonizing and validating its main relationships than the fandom commonly thinks, and most of those canon ships are gay, sooo there’s that.

That’s not a statement that people being bisexual/heterosexual is a bad thing, and heterosexual attraction is generally not stigmatized (though bi people as an identity certainly are), so the subtext here that I don’t think people are Allowed to have sexual preferences and gayness is the only intrinsic good is more than a little tiresome.

tl;dr this is pretty weak, anon! back up your points with…any substance? if for no other reason than to make your point more interesting next time. thanks!

catchaloststar replied to your post “@catchaloststar submitted: That Gamzee explanation is pretty…”

Yeah I don’t really think Horrorterrors are transformed players either, that point got a little away from me a bit. My main objection was the line of assumptions described in the first paragraph. From my POV, Occam’s Razor better suits the “explanation” that “Gamzee has no ghosts because he’s an unkillable clown” rather than coming up with any deeper explanations like infinite loyalty to LE. I’d be interested in reading that future post!

Sure, but my point about his allegiance to LE came about from attempting to resolve the tension between “Gamzee never dies because he’s an unkillable clown” and “Everyone dies in a doomed timeline”. Those are apparently contradictory facts that warrant some way of being bridged if you want to assume Homestuck is coherent, like I do.

As far as I can tell, the dreamself mechanic is the only explanation the comic gives able to resolve said tension, and it works out pretty neatly if you go with it. What followed was my interpretation of his actions taking into account the sheer scale at which they operate.

Like I said though, I think there’s at the very least additional context that casts that interpretation in a murkier light, without changing the fact of what Gamzee’s done. Here’s hoping i get to present that view soon.

i wanted to bring htis up bc you’ve been talking about Gamzee more lately and what Homestuck gets right, but i do not think you can approarch this subject without talking about what Homestuck did wrong: and that is writing nearly all its main antagonists with Black coding. Gamzee’s portayal did NOT get any better at this throughout the comic, and regardless of whether o rnot his motives ACTUALLY stem from mental illness that is the perception the comic freely states, which is peak antiBlackness

then theres the whole mess with Meenah? like, seriously, is there any way to get around that like, at all. the antiBlackness of Meenah’s portrayals. then the cherubim are associated with Voudoun and other Afrikan spiritualities, and no Calliope being a single exception to the trope does not excuse this one BIT it is seriously not okay and people like Shelby Cragg were helping with the writing of the Gamzee arc too and you can’t just ignore it esp while praising SU which is guilty of similar

I am speaking from the bottom of my heart when I say I have no idea what you’re talking about.

I’d heard criticism of Gamzee for being shitty mental illness representation, which I think is pretty valid. I know for a fact that Sollux is atrocious bipolar rep, as I’ve heard from friends with bipolar conditions. I don’t particularly think Homestuck is perfect art (a concept that is FAKE AS SHIT and doesn’t interest me), and I don’t mind pointing out the places it slips into unfortunate territory.

But I’d never heard anything about Gamzee representing anti-blackness, and juggalos are plenty white from the admittedly little I’ve seen of them, so…you’d have to convince me there? Like, I guess maybe you mean the chucklevoodoos? Which MIGHT be fair but I think they’re pretty clearly a Rage thing, and generic Rage power is basically how I default to thinking of them.

Meenah and the Condesce I can see, but uh. Meenah’s not a bad guy or treated like one by the narrative, as far as I’m concerned? She is, if anything, a way more sympathetic take on a black-coded character. It’s kind of like arguing Bro/AR is a problematic gay predator trope– and by association so is Dirk, as far as I can tell? In which case, my answer would be
“No, Dirk is a noble figure and the counterweight to that image.”

So since I don’t really understand how Gamzee factors in here and it seems to me the Condesce and Meenah exist as balances to each other, I can only really regard Caliborn’s Voudoun stuff as it exists in relation to Calliope’s, in which case I do think it’s fair to weigh the two against each other.

I’m not black so it’s pretty much not my place to say? Feel free to send me links to a more structured argument re: Gamzee if you’d like to sway me, anon. He’s an evolving subject for me anyway.

I meant: anything to say about the origins or purpose of the portal? Any ideas on why Pa Harley has supposedely been using it to visit Alternia/Beforus or how he came to posess it in the first place? Any speculation about cherub/Lord English/Calliope’s possible role in the story?

Oh! Hm. Well I definitely think Lord English is involved by proxy–Hiveswap seems to be largely centered around Doc Scratch as an antagonistic influence, while Hauntswitch seems focused on the cult of the Mirthful Messiahs. Jude seems like he’s almost definitely a Doom player, probably a Seer, and his corresponding Two-color duality motif is Lord English’s main colors: Red and Green.

As for why Pa has been visiting Alternia or how he came to possess the portal: No idea! All I really have on Pa is a strong suspicion that he’s been setting up the plot of these games at least partly to save Jude and Joey, just as he set up Sburb to save as much of humanity as he could. Pa’s a shitty dad and I hope Joey gets to set him on fire, but I don’t think he’s evil and I do think he cares.
He just sucks really hard at it.

As for the portal, well. I am pretty certain it’s not JUST a portal, and it’s not just a doomsday device, either. But you’ll be able to see my thoughts on it towards the end of Joey’s Classpect post (which I just finished!), so I’ll keep my thoughts there to myself for right now, if you don’t mind 🙂

@catchaloststar submitted:

That Gamzee explanation is pretty convincing, but it relies on the assumption that Gamzee has no ghosts + dream merger mechanics -> Gamzee never successfully saved his friends -> Gamzee is a murderous asshole who never chooses his friends over his murderous tendencies and LE loyalty. Note, of course, that I inserted the word “successfully.” Perhaps Gamzee’s immortality is a separate mechanic due to being a “rascally clown” as Hussie says, rather than simply out-surviving (or killing) the others? Aradia notes that the beta trolls fucked up their session multiple times, making victory unobtainable, without actually implying that Gamzee was responsible for each fuck-up. It seems plausible that the other beta trolls are perfectly capable of ruining their own session without Gamzee’s interference or even with his cooperation, considering how many Aradiabots had to step in and help Karkat here and there just due to his own stupid actions. Or something just didn’t loop correctly despite perfectly good yet still incorrect behavior, triggering a doomed offshoot that resulted in the surviving trolls all eventually dying of old age and leaving Gamzee. Several possible explanations, you know?

Anyway, what I’m suggesting is a scenario kind of like that old tumblr post with a picture of a Seer of Time standing alone on the Battlefield surrounded by their dead friends’ corpses, followed by a lot of speculation about immortal god tiered players in doomed timelines. Or a different post that suggests all doomed Gamzees become purple-blooded Horrorterrors rather than ghosts. Both fan-created theories, of course, but not theories that are contradicted by the source material (yet). (I can probably dig those posts up if you need them, just let me know.)

My theory in turn relies on Gamzee’s immortality being solely and independenrly due to his clownishness, rather than as a result of various other actions. Hussie “confirmed” on his formspring that Gamzee doesn’t die because he’s a “rascally clown,” but who knows how serious his formspring responses are. Maybe his being a juggalo actually refers to being a disciple of the juggalo religion, which brings us back to LE loyalty. In-comic Hussie tells Caliborn that “you can’t keep down the clown,” which Gamzee seems to support by taking an entire automatic rifle’s magazine and still being alive – but I guess you could argue that he was expressing his loyalty to LE in that scene, hence unable to die while in pursuit of that task? It’s theories all the way down. Anyway what do you think.

My main issue isn’t so much that such scenarios are impossible as it is that I think they’re begging the question a little. Occam’s razor, you know? While stuff like players turning into horrorterrors and stuff is fun, yeah, and they’re potential explanations…they’re also explanations the canon never brings up.

I tend to part from the starting premise that Homestuck is in most things a coherent and well-structured story, that tells the audience what it thinks is important for the audience to know. So coming up with fanon explanations for something we HAVE a canonical explanation for, just one that leads us to some conclusions that are pretty unpleasant, just doesn’t really mesh with my particular methodology too well.

I do think Gamzee’s immortality is due to his clownishness, but I view the link between those two things as Gamzee’s Rage aspect. Immortality=Clowns works because, well, it’s contrived and infuriating, and infuriating plot contrivances are part of the language Rage exists to describe.

All of this said, @hussianphilosopher raised some good critical counterpoints to that Gamzee post that I’m looking to incorporate into an expanded piece on Gamzee when I port that little post to Medium. I don’t really think that post is the most accurate take on Gamzee anymore.

I’m just not sure when I’ll get the chance to present this slightly different context
😦 As soon as I can, I guess.

The neverending Page & Knight discourse

I’ll start off with saying that your ideas on the Page and Knight classes are a pretty fresh take, clearly original ideas that draw from a solid foundation in the canon.

From your explanations however, I think that the Knight is the active class, and Page the passive, given that the only direct canon explanation for what the passive/active distinction amounts to is that active classes directly do something with their aspect, and passive classes invite others to do that same thing. The knight herself is still Serving, whereas the page is still inviting others to Serve, regardless of whether they are serving him. Just because Serving seems to imply acting for another person doesn’t mean it’s any different than the Prince who can destroy others (aspect). Both are acting impressing their will on another, the distinction being that one is trying to help, the other is most likely hurting.

However, I can’t say I’m convinced on Serve being the primary verb for the pair. This debate is a old as the classes themselves, yet we still find ourselves here. Serve is good, and you’ve found evidence for it, but I say it’s not Enough.

From my own theory crafting experience, I’ve cycled through most of the different words thought of as being the Key Verb. Be it Exploit (which really works for Dave’s time looping powers, and to a lesser extent Karkats victory over Clover) Wield or Use (which I then extrapolated to mean the knight was some sort of item using class, that they had a favored weapon that they could summon, an aspect themed mount, or perhaps a batman like toolbelt that contained a variety of aspect aligned tools that only they are proficient in using, eventually boiling it down to the idea that the Knight can use aspect associated items without any difficulty) as well as Protect (the knights armor is such a sound power concept). The most clear non HS example I could think of was Guts from Berserk, who is the Knight of Rage (though anyone with the Brand becomes an Heir of Doom). Guts’ dragonslayer sword is described as being more a slab of iron than a blade, basically the thing is way to big for a human, he was Wielding a Contrivance. That, and he eventually obtains the berserker armor, which protects him with his rage (protect being a strong word here, but it let’s him keep going). The Page I’ve described as the sidekick, the one who puts Armor on other people, who brings them their weapon, or car keys, given the knights penchant for having a mount. Anthy himemiyas ability to pull a sword out of her or others chest seems on surface level to be a obvious page move (Another time I’d like to discuss with you whether or not Anthy was a Page, or if the swords were complete powers in of themselves, metaphorically far more than swords, making her a Muse. But I digress)

I’m Making/playing a Sburb tabletop game with some of my friends, and the Knight of Doom has never been satisfied with his powers, and I have changed them over and over again to no avail, which Is why I have looked at the knight through so many lenses.

The most recent idea I’ve had for the Knight is something I’ve not seen touched on. When I asked my Rogue of Mind to describe what a knight traditionally is, he gave me a simplistic, shounen answer of how knights go around challenging others for the honor of their lord, and to test their mettle. I thought it was silly, until I realized the Knights in canon all did that in some form. Knights seem to challenge others to a competition related to their aspect. Dave regularly got into Rap Battles with the trolls, as well as Ironic oneupsmanship games. Karkat incessantly Argued with people, especially over Relationships and Team related things. And latula played video games I guess. The same thing is also present in the pages, to a lesser extent. Tavros was an avid fiduspawn player. Jake physically fought the dirkbots, while also playing romantic games with the alphas (while relationships are Blood, and your preferences are Heart, I give Eridan and Jake as examples that Unrequited Feelings are Hopes domain). I’ve got nothing for Horuss, which maybe is part of it? I’ve struggled with whether to call this Fight or Compete. It’s pretty obvious once you look back at it, but it still leaves questions; how do we find a word that includes the concept of Protect, Wield, Exploit, Use, Serve and Fight? They all have grounds in the canon, and all of the classes have to have one Key Verb to them. So what is it?

Also, should you find this all interesting, Check out the game I am developing, SKRUB: a Tabletop Creation Myth, a pen and paper role-playing game made to give players a complete Sburb experience.

so shit kinda hit the fan for me and i am mostly cleanin up and getting ready for some announcements, so im gonna keep this pretty short, i just wanna knock a bunch of asks out of the way:

1) once i like, can, i’d love to talk about Anthy. I’ve been reading her as a Witch or a Muse depending on my mood–I don’t really think she’s a Page at all, though I can see how you’d think so if you read them as Passive. On which point,

given that the only direct canon explanation for what the passive/active distinction amounts to is that active classes directly do something with their aspect, and passive classes invite others to do that same thing.

That’s not true? That isn’t the description of Passive classes, for starters. Passive classes invite the Aspect Itself to act through them, or invite Y action onto the Aspect. That can include influencing others, but it also includes simply acting as a channel for the “will of the Aspect” itself.

Calliope gives us the “For themselves” vs. “For others” definition seperately, but I don’t really see a reason to single that one out as Class-specific while not doing so for the description she gives for Prince/Bard. And all classes employ both “exploit” and “allow” behaviors at various times.

Hence why I think understanding the classes is easier when you parse whether they tend to benefit themselves or others.

Protect, Wield, Exploit, Use, Serve and Fight

They all have grounds in the canon, and all of the classes have to have one Key Verb to them. So what is it?

It’s Serve. Hiveswap makes me even more certain, since it’s way less subtle. For starters, I don’t really think Wield, Exploit and Use make sense as Knight/Page verbs.

Eridan, Vriska, Roxy, Rose, and countless others can be said to “Wield” their aspect like a weapon through items–the dice, roxy’s cubes, eridan and rose’s wands, etc. Rose can easily be said to be “using” Light when she uses the cueball Scratch gives her. And “Exploit” is basically synonymous with the idea of “using” one’s aspect directly, as Active classes are said to do.

There’s way more examples than I can even count, but basically I think all of those verbs are too general. As for Protect, it falls under the Serve verb under the idea of “Service”, which can mean to help someone or to literally be in their service. Redglare is referenced as a civil servant in allegiance to the Subjugglators, for example.

Help is a concept strongly associated with Knights and Pages, and often in terms of providing protection. Jake “invites” Dirk to give him Heart through the form of a bodyguard doppleganger that is referenced as a butler, and the Brobot later literally Serves Jake his heart like a butler offering it up on a platter–giving it to him, which falls under the second definition of Serve.

The “Fight” verb also falls into Serve as it’s third interpretation, because to Serve someone can also mean to own them completely or kick their ass–Caliborn directly references this definition. “You got Served”, etc.

This, by the way, is a big reason I think Knights are Passive and Pages Active. Knights are invested in working hard to protect and Serve others, while Pages are more inclined to get others to Serve them–and that can be contentious on both ends given the “fight” association, but at their respective bests Knights are still predominantly working for the benefit of other people, while Pages are rallying others to work for their own benefit.

RE: The tabletop game, i’ve been interested in tabletop sburb potential for years, so I’d def love to check it out! could you drop me a link?