to the “light is plot” discussion– yeah, and light is what makes you keep reading vs void being the fact that you could stop reading and nothing would really change. also, aranea interacts with the plot by KNOWING BASICALLY EVERYTHING? like, “sylph of light” translates to “exposition character” guys! she repairs holes in the plot, that’s why she’s inclined to ramble on and on and tell everyone around her (including the audience) stories.

yupssss

hey duelist I think joey is a breath player not light and reason is joey has not have any good luck before going to Alternia but has gotten trapped or stuck and needed to be saved so maid of breath. That and joey is john half sister it will connect them that and i think is genetics also is a factor for aspects like some times they have the same aspect of there dad or mom or what mixing those aspects will make together or a random aspect.( game and time)

Hey, thanks for the message!

I’m not sure about this, to be honest. If Joey were a breath player, I’d expect to see more Breath-related descriptions and dialogue surrounding her. So far, there’s a lot of Light and Life, but I haven’t seen much Breath yet. Feel free @ me with stuff.

Besides which, sure Joey’s related to John, but by that measure she could just as likely be a Space player, like Jade. I actually wouldn’t be shocked, to be honest? It’d require some recontextualizing, but I could see arguments that Space imagery is already there, what with the green sun and all that.

Her parents are also Jake, a Hope player, and if my guess about A. Claire is right, then a version of Jane, so a Life player. Or A.Claire could be someone else entirely, at which point she could be any Aspect and might be influencing Joey in ways we don’t understand yet.

My point is, there’s room for Joey to be related to players of lots of different Aspects, so I’m not sure I’d use that as a way to tell for sure.

My 11th grade english teacher taught us that writers go over their work again and again– they don’t put every bit of symbolism in their first draft, that gets added later. How on earth did Andrew Hussie put so much symbolism in Homestuck when it was updated whenever he finished the next page? He couldn’t have thought all this out ahead of time, could he?

Your English teacher was wrong, for starters. The presumption that all writers develop their work the same way is flat-out incorrect. I know writers who can only write with outlines, writers who don’t use outlines at all, writers who believe they’re writing out events that happened in some other place in the multiverse, and writers who strongly attest to just the opposite. 

Depending on who you ask, writing is intellectual or personal or philosophical or spiritual or any combination of the above, and no two people approach it identically. Writing, like all art, is as personal an alchemy as the construction of your own identity. 

So it’s entirely possible Hussie is a writer who could indeed have thought a lot of this out ahead of time. I don’t know the guy and am not in the habit of speculating as to his nature or allowing ideas about what’s “possible” for a writer to influence how I read the text, because usually what people think is “possible” is just a bunch of self-limiting bullshit.

That said, I don’t really know how Hussie wrote the story, beyond a few methods that are beginning to seem self-evident to me. We’re lucky in that one such method is one he’s discussed himself, presented here through @curlicuecal ‘s excellent roundup of Hussie’s quotes on writing:

image

The takeaway here is that Hussie is a very rules-focused author, who values consistency and strict adherence to the parameters he lays out.
This is specifically about character writing, but Homestuck is a rules-focused narrative in all things, so it’s easy to extrapolate elsewhere:

The Alpha Timeline, Classpects, Roleplay, The Active/Passive Spectrum, Denizen symbolism, Dreamselves–all have corresponding sets of rules, whether they be guides for behaviors, logical consequences to actions taken, or the fundamental structures of the setting itself.

It’s also demonstrably true that Hussie is something of a culture remixer, who will freely adapt entire plotlines from other sources for a particular character’s arc if it’s useful to his goal.  

So I’d suggest that this hypothesis is somewhat likely:
At least insofar as the Gnostic symbolism that pervades the entire story goes, you’re mixing up cause and effect. 

Hussie didn’t need a second draft to “add” symbols to his story, because Homestuck is built around the symbols in the first place.
It’s worth noting that Homestuck itself puts a massive emphasis on the power of Symbols through the TRAGICALLY overlooked Drunk Rose District section:

image

So, for example, Hussie didn’t need to know every minute twist and turn of Caliborn’s ridiculous story in order to build him up as a compelling villain–he just needed to start Homestuck’s story with the understanding that it was about being “Trapped” in a flawed world created by a “Yaldabaoth” figure:
a flawed, evil Creator God associated with the Sun. 

This means Hussie could use the symbol of the Sun to stand in as a symbol for Yaldabaoth/the central antagonist, which is precisely what we see him do:

And the details of the antagonist’s nature could be developed and presented later, linking the character to the Symbol explicitly in any number of ways:

Like the red sun being presented later in Caliborn’s artwork, “Homosuck”–represented by his red cheek spiral, no less.

Hussie could also hypothetically build from the symbolism already associated with Yaldabaoth to flesh out the character further. All it would take is some cursory research on, say, Wikipedia or other freely accessible texts like Jung’s 7 Sermons. 

The Demiurge is sometimes described as an Angel, and through association with Samael, specifically an Angel of Death. There we get LE embodying Death to Troll-kind, and Caliborn and Calliope’s Cherubic origins. So on and so forth.

This is the logic that guides my approach in researching everything Homestuck presents, not just Caliborn. The Classpects, the Denizens, particular character beats–everything. So far, I think it’s been pretty fruitful, so I might be onto something with all this.

And doing this kind of freeballing, primarily online research for mythbuilding would also make a lot of sense if Hussie were, for example, writing primarily for an online audience known for researching and analyzing pretty much everything the story presents.

It would in fact be quite efficient to include some references to Wikipedia and then litter the story with thematic and symbolic callouts, letting the fandom pick up the threads and apply them to the plot, which itself would benefit from being able to focus on itself without having to take the time to explain and break down every symbol and reference.

Again it’s worth saying that this is just me guessing based off what I’ve seen in Homestuck itself. I have no idea if Hussie actually approached the story at all like this. I could well be wrong.

But whether or not it’s true in Hussie’s specific case, it’s certainly a way one could plausibly construct a story like Homestuck, if one were inclined to write a very complex story with profound symbology and approached writing as a process of setting and then holding to a series of rules.

So whether or not it’s true here, I think it lends a certain logic to how stories like Homestuck could be written, and that makes it a valuable exercise in critical analysis and in considering how I might like to write things someday, myself. 

Writing works like this is certainly not impossible. 
It just takes a little foresight, persistence and commitment to a certain work style, and good foundational design. 

Yo, I may have discovered another way Dirk emulates Dave, through music. In the 2 major flashes Dirk was in, Prince: Rise up, Unite, and Synchronize, they play 2 themes that were previously associated with Dave, Time On My Side and Unite Synchronization (due to the bandcamp art that represents those tracks). I’m curious on your thoughts on this.

my main thought is “mother of fuck now ill never be able to unthink that” so good job anon thats certainly part of MY canon now

do you have any advice for trying to assign yourself a classpect?

Keep in mind that it’s ultimately only worth doing if it makes you happy and helps you visualize your strengths/like yourself more. They’re a useful tool for assessing yourself if you understand them and yourself well, but not everyone is there or even interested in it and that’s ok! At the same time, I think classpects are at their best when they give you something to aspire to and strive for.

Basically just make sure you’re engaging healthily and that you’re having fun. As far as, like, picking one? I’d just say the more you read about the system the easier it is to figure it out. That’s what worked for me, anyhow! 

Hey, sorry if this is ignorant or whatever, but I’m still relatively New to your blog (which is pretty fucking amazing btw) but what’s your Force and Flow series? From what I’ve been able to gather it has a lot to do with classpects

no such thing, it would be delusional to expect anyone to be able to keep up with my constant, poorly organized torrent of words about Homestuck.

Force & Flow is an essay series I released a couple months ago focused heavily on a new understanding of the Classes that I think reflects how they work in Canon much better.

https://medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/force-and-flow-the-aspects-arent-the-only-existential-duality-at-play-in-classpects-fd1c3958314c

This is the Master post, where I outline the foundational logic of the system and talk about Lord/Muse

Then it links into three essays for four sets of classes for the other 12:

https://medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/force-and-flow-destroy-and-create-f5294ac04ee5

https://medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/force-and-flow-steal-and-serve-83c1e077c50f

https://medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/force-and-flow-know-and-change-6ea05e3e00e8

Obviously, I need to update the Destroy and Steal sections with their corresponding myths sometime. Dunno when I’ll get to that. 

There’s a couple of offshoot essays focused on particular characters–Jade and Jane in particular, and I’ve done a toooon of writing on Jake and Dirk besides, but that about covers it.

God I need a better way to organize all this stuff and make it accessible >_>;; Sorry for the hassle, anon!

You mentioned in one of your essays that Dirk rp’s a knight. Can you go into more depth on that? (Or direct me to someplace you already have?)

Yeah, my writing on roleplay is strewn all over the place. I really need to write about it as it’s own mechanic in more detail, which I suppose I’ll be doing for videos.

Here’s a couple of the sections that are most relevant:

https://medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/force-and-flow-steal-and-serve-83c1e077c50f 

The Serve part of this essay outlines how Pages tend to inspire characters to act like their Knights, and how Jake’s summoning of Brain Ghost Dirk fits that mold.

https://revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/159876062077/nobility

Here I talk about how Dirk and AR are both trying to emulate Dave in their narratives, though it could use a bit of updating. 

https://revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/post/159913879902/as-you-wish

Here I go over how Dirk’s attempt at roleplay is validated by the narrative through Grandpa.

https://medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/pulling-the-strings-dirk-as-manipulative-puppetmaster-ba781ad33c2c

And here I go on about how AR was the clear winner of the power struggle leading to Unite Synchronize and Dirk didn’t do like 90% of the shit people pin on him, which I’m dumping a link to as well because like, why not? I love dirk thanks

Man this stuff is going to be a nightmare to condense into a single video. rip

[1]OK so in your force and flow series,you said that Lords and Muses,which are both extreme examples of active and passive classes,are successful because they utilize their abilities in active and passive ways simultaneously,you also said that heirs/witches and mages/seers are successful for extremely similar reasons,and that they were the least extreme cases of active/passive classes,but if we consider similarity to either of the master classes to indicate activity/passivity

a-aromax:

revolutionaryduelist:

[2]Then wouldnt it follow that princes/bards and sylphs/maids would switch places with the heirs/witches and mages/seers

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Hrmmm, I see what you’re saying. I was going off this quote from Calliope:

Along with the distinction of Lords as “Most Active” and Muse as “Most Passive”.

My logic was that the more intensely Active/Passive classes had more dramatic impacts on their sessions, while the less Active/Passive classes were more versatile and able to switch back and forth from Active to Passive easier, making them more flexible.

The Master Classes, then, have the best of both worlds–they can have incredibly high impacts like the far-end classes, but they can also reap the benefits of both Exploiting and Allowing their aspect as necessary like the closer ones.

But that may be inaccurate. I think we’re getting closer, but I’m not sure we’ve “figured out” all the nuances of the Active/Passive scale. 
There’s a couple things that are still puzzling me, and questions like this one shaking or playing with the model are definitely helpful for helping us figure things out.

I don’t necessarily have any thoughts on this right now except that I’d like to hear how you account for Princes being positioned close to Lords in the scale. I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong, I feel like I’m missing stuff in my model. I’m just not 100% sure how to square this with the evidence we’ve got in canon. 

Any thoughts?

So,this is my current version of the active passive scale.

My theory is that the further a class is positioned horizontally,the more direct control over their aspect they have,and the less likely they are to act in a more passive or active manner,and if they do it usually doesn’t go very well.The further vertically positioned a class is,the less direct control over their aspect they have,and the more likely they are to act in more active or passive manners successfully.So Princes and Bards are very active,just not the same way that lords are,and vice versa for Sylphs and Bards.

hmmm. I like this setup in theory, I think? I guess my main issue is that I don’t see how it’s provable or referenceable in Homestuck’s canon, and if we can’t pin down what Homestuck thinks it means for a class to be (-1) as opposed to (-2), then the whole setup becomes too abstract and theoretical to easily explain to a layperson.

Do you have any thoughts on how Homestuck would transmit these distinctions through its storytelling? 

When I think about the distinction between active/passive classes, one of the most prominent things I think about is exerting influence through oneself vs through others. That’s how I can view both rogues, who give to others for their benefit, and pages, who inspire others to serve them, as both passive. Obviously, there is more to your argument for active/passive roles, and more to mine as well, but anon has a character limit, so i’ll just leave you with this new angle to view the dichotomy.

Yep, depending on what elements you weigh the heaviest, Knights and Pages in particular get complicated. That’s really the only thing that throws me off in determining which is Passive and which is Active.

The reason I currently come down on Pages as Active is twofold. One, I simply think shaking up the current reading of Knights and Pages is important, because most people’s readings of Pages is really off, frankly? 

But two, when considering it this way, I keep getting tripped up by other examples. Like, Muse is the Most Passive apparently–but Alt!Calliope has her greatest impact through her own direct action by blowing up a sun. Lord is the most active, yet Caliborn and Lord English have most of their direct impact on the plot through the ways they coerce, manipulate, and influence others. What stays consistent is who benefits, regardless of method. Calliope and Alt!Calliope’s actions are basically always to the benefit of others. Caliborn’s machinations always benefit himself. 

It’s possible that’s a quirk exclusive to Master classes and there’s more to figure out about how Active/Passive works for the other classes, but for the time being I use it as a guide and consider the “For oneself” vs. “For others” habitual distinction the most important one to consider for Pages and Knights. Pages tend to benefit themselves, Knights tend to benefit others.

Hey! So I couldn’t find it by browsing, but I’m curious: why do you pair maid with sylph & heir with witch? I always paired Maid and Heir, as well as Sylph and Witch, but mostly because (in my head) Maid and Heir seem the most similar out of the two couplings.

Heya! I think the pairs are explicitly shown to us in the comic through the use of unifying myths that connect two classes under a common symbol language.
As far as I can tell, these myths are:

Lord/Muse: Conductors

Maid/Sylph: Fairies

Prince/Bard: Royalty

Page/Knight: Warriors & Butlers, (Lawbringers)(?)

Thief/Rogue: Outlaws, including all variations: Pirates, Bandits, Robin Hood, etc.

Mage/Seer: Prophets

Heir/Witch: Magicians

I outline my views on all of these myths (minus the recently noticed ones, Royalty and Outlaws,
which I’m writing tumblr posts for right now) in my essay series on the Classes, Force & Flow.

I do think there are some strong resonances between Maid and Heir and Sylph and Witch, however. But my general mindset is that the Class system is a lot more hyperflexible and complex than we’ve given it credit for so far, and like the Aspects there can be resonances and relationships built up between Classes that aren’t necessarily linked by their established pairs. I can only view this as possible because I think the pairs are established so clearly, in fact.