Tag: analysis asks

What are your thoughts on an alternate arrangement of classes? Namely, instead of witch/heir, maid/sylph as +/- pairs… witch/sylph, maid/heir? There’s canon textual evidence for witches and sylphs being linked, both seem tied to disorder/change in the sense that witches increase it, while sylphs decrease it. maids and heirs both seem tied to provenance, perhaps? maids generate/create actively, while heirs receive/become/are created passively. The terminology’s also conceptually more connected.

at this point, i think the unifying myths I’ve picked up on carry enough weight that I value them over nebulous rearrangements of the class terminology we don’t know. That’s because there’s a lot of overlap between the classes and how they might use their terminology: Thief/Rogue, Knight/Page, and Prince/Bard are all associated with weaponizing, for example.

I wouldn’t be averse to an alternate arrangement, but unless links are drawn from the canon that associate the classes together as strongly and as consistently as the unifying myths seem to, I’d probably continue to regard the setup we’ve developed on that basis as canonical. 

[1]OK so in your force and flow series,you said that Lords and Muses,which are both extreme examples of active and passive classes,are successful because they utilize their abilities in active and passive ways simultaneously,you also said that heirs/witches and mages/seers are successful for extremely similar reasons,and that they were the least extreme cases of active/passive classes,but if we consider similarity to either of the master classes to indicate activity/passivity

[2]Then wouldnt it follow that princes/bards and sylphs/maids would switch places with the heirs/witches and mages/seers

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Hrmmm, I see what you’re saying. I was going off this quote from Calliope:

Along with the distinction of Lords as “Most Active” and Muse as “Most Passive”.

My logic was that the more intensely Active/Passive classes had more dramatic impacts on their sessions, while the less Active/Passive classes were more versatile and able to switch back and forth from Active to Passive easier, making them more flexible.

The Master Classes, then, have the best of both worlds–they can have incredibly high impacts like the far-end classes, but they can also reap the benefits of both Exploiting and Allowing their aspect as necessary like the closer ones.

But that may be inaccurate. I think we’re getting closer, but I’m not sure we’ve “figured out” all the nuances of the Active/Passive scale. 
There’s a couple things that are still puzzling me, and questions like this one shaking or playing with the model are definitely helpful for helping us figure things out.

I don’t necessarily have any thoughts on this right now except that I’d like to hear how you account for Princes being positioned close to Lords in the scale. I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong, I feel like I’m missing stuff in my model. I’m just not 100% sure how to square this with the evidence we’ve got in canon. 

Any thoughts?

Do you agree with the idea that void players often act as “pure” versions of their class?For example,a prince of Void may just be an extremely destructive person in general,not exactly destroying void,but just destroying in general.

i guess not really? i’d never considered it, but i’d say any aspect player is going to be a pure version of their class because both class and aspect have their own motifs that interlink. 

” 2) Inherently irrelevant and unimportant to anything about any of the characters except how it makes society treat them.3) Explicitly a lie. ” But that’s wrong you fuckin dumb.

Higher castes live longer and tend to be more vicious. While lower castes have shorter lifespans (even without the drones hunting them) and are naturally attuend to become psychics.

Just because you want to force political correctness unto a race of violent space dominators and establish that racism is bad in our world doesn’t mean it’s a lie among the trolls.

1) Charming. Do you get invited to parties often when you open rebuttals to people’s points with “you fuckin dumb”?

2) All this, and yet, Beforus managed to handle the exact same physical differences with a system that didn’t necessitate genocide and slavery! Hm, how about that! It’s almost like the eerie bargain the Alpha trolls made that allowed Scratch onto Alternia had some sort of impact on their society. Interesting. Almost like…the racism and exploitation was a bad thing? Huh.

3) Before you even go there, no, Beforus is not as bad as Alternia in “a different way”. Alternia is explicitly presented as a fall from grace for Trollkind, and it’s brutal, and it’s awful, and it’s Lord English’s fault. Don’t make me dig up the screencaps just please go actually read Homestuck. Systems of exploitation are bad and unnecessary across the board–no physical differences justify exploitation and brutality. Period.

And another thing about the source of STRENGTH thing. I don’t think that’s right either. Equius is plenty strong in his own. The reason why him and every other Zahhak followed it (in relation to how the hemocaste was in each alternate universe) was because they are incredibly dependent on SYSTEMS. Everything has to be in their right place, everyone doing what they’re meant to do. If someone doesn’t fit in the system it confuses and flusters them.

Equius is physically strong because that’s a mutation endemic to his blood color, of which he seems to be a particularly exceptional example. He values the blood that marks him as someone physically strong quite similarly to how Caliborn values physical strength itself. 

And he values the system that takes that physical trait of his and tells him he’s special for it, tells him he’s Above Others due to something he was born with, which is objectively. Not. True. There is nothing about Equius that makes him intrinsically better than anyone else–he just treats others that way because the system he so values conditions him into believing there is. Yes, of course he’s reliant on the system on which he predicates his entire self-worth.

“Confuses and flusters” him? Sure. And on Alternia, he would’ve acted on that confusion and fluster by exploiting, hurting, or reporting others to the authorities. He’s a Good Troll by alternian standards. This is how systems of oppression work. None of this does much to counteract my point, or…make Equius’ ideology more palatable? Is that what you’re trying to do here? It sounds unbelievable, but I’m not sure what else you could be going for.

It took him being killed, get his moirail killed, be revived as a sprite, getting combined with a horse AI, and finally reuniting with his moirail but he did change at the very, very end when it would even matter. Either way, the changed Equius is what was finally put into LE.

Yes, at which point the “changed Equius” was promptly devoured by Caliborn’s soul and integrated into LE like so many spare puppet parts. Caliborn predominated–that’s what he does. The other souls incorporated into LE are little more than amalgamations of interests and puppets for him. Equius has no blame or agency in this–it’s simply a way he fulfills his Class role by “becoming” Void. Not reallyyy sure what this is supposed to tell me. 

It seems like there’s a natural path to trace where a person starts out doing analysis for fun and over time morphs into a bkew style crackpot with ridiculous theories that they are UTTERLY CONVINCED are true. Are you worried that it will eventually happen to you?

Why would I be worried about it? it already did :p

No but to be serious, like, I’m a fan of BKEW’s. I’m a fan of virtually every Homestuck writer out there? I would not be writing what I’m writing if BKEW hadn’t written what he’s written. The same is true of @dahniwitchoflight , @sam-keeper , lildurandal, and a bunch of other writers and thinkers. Not sure how I feel about seeing anyone so passionate about something I care about described as a crackpot, regardless of whether I disagree with them about some things, because as far as the passion and conviction goes I really am already there, and I don’t have any reason to be ashamed of it.

That said, I try really really hard to look and focus on the text directly, to pay attention to what the comic is prioritizing and branch out from there. So like, I guess I’d say I’m not TOO worried I’ll lose sight of what I’m doing because I’m ultimately less interested in any particular theory I advance than I am in understanding Homestuck as a whole. 

A good example is Xefros; his reference to PASSIVELY absorbing a narrative has genuinely thrown me off a bit re: whether Pages are active or passive. I’m still inclined to regard it as roleplay, and the evidence still seems to weigh Pages active and Knights passive, but one of the things I’m so keenly interested in in hiveswap is whether it changes that equation for me. Whatever the case turns out to be, it’ll lead to a better understanding of what the Classpect system prioritizes for describing a class as Active or Passive, so we’ll have something to gain whether I’m right or wrong.

So I guess I’d just say I strive really hard to take Homestuck seriously, and part of that is being reactive to the views of others and new evidence presented to me because I literally never know when I’ll be given new information that’ll shake things up for me but eventually lead to a stronger reading of the text? This has happened literally more times than I can count. 

What do you think Dammek’s obsession with making Xefros a butler is about? It would seem to me if Dammek wants to overthrow the hemospectrum, he wouldn’t be emulating an unequal class structure. I’ve read the theory that he’s secretly a highblood and is a double agent, but that seems unconvincing to me. Could it be because he wants to infiltrate a highblood place by pretending to be butlers? Any thoughts?

I don’t buy the double agent/highblood thing at all, it’s effectively random as far as I can tell. 

Dammek isn’t particularly trying to make Xefros a butler, though. Alternia does just fine at that on pain of death. 

What I DO think Dammek is guilty of is having Xefros serve him, specifically. But the exact way that’s fucked up seems a bit more nuanced, because Xefros describes his servitude to Dammek as Butler PRACTICE, and not getting enough practice is, again, literally lethal to Xefros if he isn’t good enough.
So I can see how both Xefros and Dammek might justify the treatment, though my guess is Dammek is probably too self-centered to think it through like that and most likely just sort of takes it for granted. 

Homestuck is extremely concerned with broad systems of power and how they affect individuals–even those who hate or try to fight the system. I think the reason why so many fans get hung up on issues of “Is Dammek good/evil” as if that’s a question that matters are sort of missing the point, which is that Alternia by design breaks kid’s abilities to have healthy relationships with each other. In this case, Dammek’s slight blood advantage is all it takes. 

oh, drat. i was afraid youd say that you hadnt found anything for princes and bards. thats ok tho! ngl, the unifying myths are very useful when it comes to understanding a class AND the roleplay system concept! having them be finished would be nice, if it was possible. its probably not tho. an idea before i go- could it be the shakesperean fool? a comedic character that serves as an insight into complex issues, sometimes harsh, and usually isnt an idiot? i dunno. keep up the good work tho!

Actually the wake of that ask spawned a conversation that made me pretty conclusively decide that the unifying myth for Princes/Bards is probably Royalty, or Nobility, which is hilarious. That also makes me much more inclined to regard Thief/Rogue as Pirates or Outlaws in general. Sooo so much for my prior position–see what I mean? There’s always stuff in Homestuck that I’m missing, and my stance changes on a dime once I’m presented with a consistent strand of thought. 

Presenting it is going to require me to dive deep into the comic for quotes to be sure about it. I guess I’ll have to make some small meta posts or edit Force & Flow and see if they hold up! Couple other things to do first, though. I guess Stay Tuned™???