Tag: betweengenesisfrogs

Lord English as a Manifestation of Trauma: An Alternate Reading

betweengenesisfrogs:

[This is an excerpt from a longer post, but I think it can stand on its own. It’s based on blogger mmmmalo/Malo’s idea of Homestuck characters as Manifestations of the protagonists’ psychology and trauma. Malo argues that Lord English is a reflection of Jade’s hidden trauma; below, I present a different approach.

Content warning for discussion of neglect, abuse, CSA, suicide, assault, and general
trauma.]

As I understand it, Manifestations Theory posits:

New characters, events, and problems introduced in Homestuck come into being as symbolic echoes (manifestations) of the psychology of the original four characters. Further characters also emerge as manifestations of those new characters, and so on. This is especially true of the interaction between the kids and the trolls, but also of other figures like the Midnight Crew, the Dancestors, and Lord English.

I really dig this way of reading Homestuck! It often leads to really interesting results. I think it makes a great deal of sense in terms of how Hussie writes his characters as echoes or riffs on previous characters.

It also could be very literally true in terms of how Paradox Space works. revolutionaryduelist has written about reality as an extension of everyone’s will and agency in Homestuck, and TexTalks has pointed out that ideas like Light and Space and other Platonic Forms are literally what make up the building blocks of all things in Homestuck’s metaphysics.

I could very easily see a Paradox Space which provides its players with beings and events that echo their own psychology. In which the challenge for SBURB players, in very Gnostic fashion, is to face the reflections of their own selves in order to find their own identity within their concerns and fears. That’s awesome!

That said, my reading of the origin of Lord English as a psychological Manifestation differs significantly from Malo’s.

What I find very striking about Lord English is that he’s an amalgamation. He’s a fusion of Caliborn + Lil’ Hal (AR) + Equius + Half of Gamzee.
That’s incredibly resonant, because if there’s one thing it makes sense
for the villain to be in Homestuck, it’s a collision of overlapping
symbols, like everything else that drives its story. And a mess of
overlapping symbols is also perfect as an expression of psychological
problems.

Here’s the reading I’ve been playing around with:

Lord
English is the manifestation of the collective traumas, repressions,
and psychological issues of the initial protagonists of Homestuck.

Keep reading

Oooh my god, I love this. I never quite linked LE to trauma or any given character’s psychological issues, and I certainly never considered attempting to pair the Betas with respective components of LE.

I’m not super sure how sold I am on the link between Rose and Caliborn
(Scratch always struck me as more Hal than Caliborn myself; the twisted realization of Caliborn’s desire to be “Bros” with Dirk mingling with AR’s desire to emulate Dave by Serving others.) And I’m still mulling Jade over, too.

But that’s pretty much just me saying this take on LE is really interesting, and teases new light out of him as an antagonistic figure, so I hope we end up expanding on the concept more.

Grandpa Harley and MMMManifestations Theory Extended Discussion

betweengenesisfrogs:

[Content warning, as with my Jade post, for discussion of sexual assault, CSA, perceived suicide, and trauma, discussed slightly more explicitly than in the previous post, as well as abuse, alcoholism, and neglect in the context of other characters.]

So red-zora asked about my interpretation of Grandpa Harley from my Jade post, how my understanding of him as a character differs from mmmmalo’s interpretation according to his Manifestations Theory and how this all connects to Lord English. Very belatedly (sorry!), I’m finally posting my response!

I’ve wrestled a lot with how to approach the topic, since it concerns very intense emotional trauma that could be painful and triggering for many people, and I definitely don’t want to come off in any way hostile to mmmmalo (henceforth Malo), who by every indication is a really awesome, good dude. On the other hand, I’m sure plenty of people would be interested in my reasons for thinking the way I do, and this is a really good opportunity to clarify my thoughts. So read on if you’re interested. Let’s say I’m down to see how the conversation goes, and I’ll reserve the right to call it off if we need to.

First off, I want to make this clear: I’m not interested in excusing or ignoring any problematic actions by Grandpa Harley or any other Homestuck character. I mean, come on. This should be obvious from the fact that I spent my Jade post tearing him a new one, calling him a bad person, a bad parent, and someone who had a huge negative influence on Jade’s life. I’m more than willing to think he’s terrible.

I just disagree with some other Homestuck analysts about *why* he’s a bad parent. In figuring out Jade’s story, I’ve tried to draw on canon evidence as much as possible. I’ve tried to base my understanding of Homestuck on that evidence, and it’s that desire to be accurate to the work, rather than any desire to excuse anybody, that’s given me the interpretation I do. Hopefully that makes sense.

Here’s my thesis, then, based on a close reading of Homestuck:

Grandpa Harley’s characterization in Homestuck is based around absence and neglect, rather than sexual abuse. While it’s impossible to prove a negative, I find it very hard to make the case that he’s being depicted as a sexual predator. In viewing him as one, especially in “this is what’s happening in the story” terms, I feel like we lose track of what’s going on in his story, both in Hiveswap and in Homestuck itself.

Now, I should note that Malo’s Manifestations Theory doesn’t really deal with the literal level. As I understand it, it relies on symbolism and motif, mostly Freudian and Jungian, to draw new and interesting meanings out of Homestuck. That puts it in a different category than a literal claim about Grandpa – a reading based on symbolism is much harder to prove or disprove. At the same time, I still find symbols of ABSENCE, DEATH, and FANTASY to be much more central motifs for his character, essential if he is to be understood.

Below, I’ll talk about why, first on the literal/factual level and then on the symbolic level, and then finally get into my own feelings about Manifestation Theory and how I’d interpret Lord English under such a framework. Bear with me, this is going to be a loooong one.

Keep reading

I don’t have a ton to add here other than to say that I love this post. I myself have been struggling with wanting to address malo’s take on Grandpa-as-sexual-aggressor while also keeping perspective on my general enjoyment of malo’s work and Manifestation Theory in general.

I’m pretty much feeling like you put my jumbled, messy thoughts in order here. This is pretty much my answer to any inquiries about Grandpa-as-sexual-assailant, too. 

I’m likely to have more to say about this down the line (hopefully soon I can voice my thoughts on Malo’s own response to this post, and man I am excited that we’re communicating about this stuff as a community!), but for now just…bravo. I’m so glad you took the time to write this out.

OFF-THE-CUFF HOMESTUCK THOUGHTS #5: ACT 6 HOMESTUCK AS NARRATIVE REBELLION, OR: ARCS ARE DEAD, LONG LIVE ARCS

betweengenesisfrogs:

DISCLAIMER       FRAMEWORK

[CHECK THE TAG FOR MORE THOUGHTS]

[Note: This one’s a doozy! Still kind of off-the-cuff, in
that I tried not to stress out about getting everything perfect, but I did do
some revision to make my ideas more clear. That’ll probably be the norm from
here on out. Hope you’re in the mood for a long read and a wild ride!

…Seriously, this shit is like twenty pages in Word.]

In my previous posts, I’ve discussed a number of ideas
present in Act 6 and Act 7 Homestuck that I think contribute powerfully to the
ending of Homestuck, especially on a thematic level.

I’ve discussed Homestuck as a meditation on the nature of a
self divided across the many timelines of a dispassionate cosmos, and argued
that the Retcon, far from a drastic change in storytelling, is a continuation
of that long-running theme. Is victory meaningless if one’s original self isn’t
around to claim it, or can a coherent, archetypal identity can be understood as
existing beyond all of one’s disparate selves? In the system of Skaia,
Homestuck asks, how do we live?

I’ve also discussed Homestuck, especially Act 6 Homestuck,
as a Gnostic work, the story of an escape from a cosmic tyrant, a Demiurge
whose ultimate weakness is that he cannot see the limitations of the domain
he’s been given. In the same post, I discussed how this realm of the Demiurge,
Lord English’s domain, is constantly paralleled with the space embodied by
Homestuck itself, and how the kid’s departure from the story evokes their
escape from this tyrant’s space-time domain as it reaches the end set for it by
Paradox Space. From the system of Lord English, Homestuck asks, how do we
escape? And at the same time, in the system of narrative called Homestuck, how
do we find meaning within its limitations, and how do we escape them?

These themes work together.  As we’ve seen, they echo and reinforce each
other, provide parallels and points of contrast. In fact, I’d argue that each
of these different themes are diverse manifestations of one larger theme, in the
same way that individual selves in Homestuck can be thought of as
manifestations of one larger Self. This overarching theme is present throughout
Homestuck, but it reaches its culmination in Act 6 and 7, in a finale that
drives it home in a different ways. To understand Homestuck is to understand
this theme.

If someone were to ask me, “What is Homestuck about?” this
would be my answer:

Homestuck is an
exploration of the tension between abstract, impersonal systems and individual,
personal experiences of those systems.

Abstract, impersonal systems are everywhere in Homestuck,
systems that don’t always align with the desires, emotions, and goals of the
main characters. The central question of Homestuck is how these characters will
choose to understand the systems that govern their lives, and how they will carve
out meaningful lives in relation to those systems. Gnosticism, metafiction,
divided identities, and Sburb itself all play into this theme. As Homestuck’s
characters decide how to live their lives within these many interconnected systems,
they suggest possibilities for our own lives, for we readers also live in a
world that also contains many systems and forces outside of our control. In
their choices, we find opportunities and implications for how we should live.

You’ll notice I said there’s a tension, rather than an opposition,
between individual experience and abstract systems. I think that gets closer to
the truth of what Homestuck is trying to say. Characters in Homestuck sometimes
reject its systems altogether, but just as often they exploit them or find
identities for themselves within the constraints/opportunities of those
systems. While Caliborn’s  Gnostic-style
domain of control is presented in a negative light, as something worth opposing
and escaping, other systems, like Sburb itself, are presented in a much more
ambiguous light, challenging us to decide how we feel about those systems and
the possibilities they present within their rules.

I’ve talked about several of these systems in my previous
posts, but today I want to talk about one I haven’t yet dug into in detail.
Narrative itself.

Narrative in Homestuck, the power a story holds over its
characters, is another system which the characters of Homestuck are constantly
fighting, exploiting, and embracing.

Because another word for those abstract systems in Homestuck
is…

Arcs.

Keep reading

This is honestly like the best writing on Homestuck’s themes I’ve read since, like, basically @sam-keeper ‘s stuff? 

God I’m so glad this exists. God I hope we’re able to like, as a community uncovering these themes, like…make them accessible to people more. this stuff is so cool but also it’s so…important, to me? as a person? god

i’m emotional and crying and really pensive, just, just please read this ok? Read this and also everything on Homestuck sam ever wrote cause she was here like back in 2012 and we’re all more or less catching up.