page of rage idea!) seem like avid followers of their own faith/religion/cult. in the true zodiac test, the questions that seemed to relate to hope and rage seemed to put them in a clear dichotomy as well – so ive just been meaning to ask u what do u think about this?? is the dichotomy about something other than faith/doubt?? (2/2)
The main thing is that the Rage players’ religion doesn’t actually require faith, at all, because it’s simply true. The Mirthful Messiahs worship Lord English/Caliborn, and, well…he exists. He’s right in view of all the ghosts and stuff, blowing them to smithereens.
I think the dichotomy involves a lot more than faith/doubt (coherence vs. contrivance, for one thing). But as far as the Rage players’ religions go, I don’t see much of a conflict, currently.
from what the canon classpect test indicates, it’s not so much “faith vs. doubt” as it is “loving truths vs hating lies.” hope players have an intrinsic need to believe in something, and their power comes from that intent belief, whether it’s jake’s beliefs that he can save his friends (masterpiece) or that dirk can help him (game over timeline), or eridan’s belief in “white science” ultimately giving him his abilities.
rage players, meanwhile, are hellbent on disproving lies and making sure everyone knows how full of shit they are. the most obvious canon for this is when gamzee loses his absolute shit about icp, because their version of juggalo-ing runs super counter to the truth he knows. it’s a gigantic lie and he fucking hates it. this is why caliborn/LE, through lil cal, is able to speak to him and influence him so readily: LE offers the absolute truth. he is already here. gamzee is already part of him. gamzee embraces that truth, but it’s not what gives him his power. what gives him his power is the hatred he has for what he sees as lies.
rage players, according to that test, bring doubt and confusion, but how that happens is because they are tearing down what the rest of the world may perceive as true because to them, it is flawed and not worth saving. both hope and rage involve commitment to an idea, but rage is about commitment to destroy what is false, and if doubt is sown along the way, the ends justify the means.
Yeah, I agree with this pretty much completely. Pretty useful nuance, too–I’d never verbalized the relationship between them quite this way. Thanks!
page of rage idea!) seem like avid followers of their own faith/religion/cult. in the true zodiac test, the questions that seemed to relate to hope and rage seemed to put them in a clear dichotomy as well – so ive just been meaning to ask u what do u think about this?? is the dichotomy about something other than faith/doubt?? (2/2)
The main thing is that the Rage players’ religion doesn’t actually require faith, at all, because it’s simply true. The Mirthful Messiahs worship Lord English/Caliborn, and, well…he exists. He’s right in view of all the ghosts and stuff, blowing them to smithereens.
I think the dichotomy involves a lot more than faith/doubt (coherence vs. contrivance, for one thing). But as far as the Rage players’ religions go, I don’t see much of a conflict, currently.
The more I think about it, the more I agree with Tex Talk’s description of the Aspects as each relating to an element in narrative construction.
It’s been traditionally accepted that Light is the Aspect of narrative revelance/importance. The “Spotlight”, if you will. Tex argues that all the Aspects represent different elements of a story.
So I’d say all Aspects are an aspect of stories, in that they all describe different parts of narrative construction that make a story whole.
So then it’s not so much that Light is the aspect of stories, but that the fact that Homestuck is a story is one of the most important things about it. Indeed, characters like Vriska and Jasprose come by the closest to acknowledging and interacting with the author.
I’m not sure about this, to be honest. If Joey were a breath player, I’d expect to see more Breath-related descriptions and dialogue surrounding her. So far, there’s a lot of Light and Life, but I haven’t seen much Breath yet. Feel free @ me with stuff.
Besides which, sure Joey’s related to John, but by that measure she could just as likely be a Space player, like Jade. I actually wouldn’t be shocked, to be honest? It’d require some recontextualizing, but I could see arguments that Space imagery is already there, what with the green sun and all that.
Her parents are also Jake, a Hope player, and if my guess about A. Claire is right, then a version of Jane, so a Life player. Or A.Claire could be someone else entirely, at which point she could be any Aspect and might be influencing Joey in ways we don’t understand yet.
My point is, there’s room for Joey to be related to players of lots of different Aspects, so I’m not sure I’d use that as a way to tell for sure.
Howdy @steven-understuck! I do mostly sprites so I doubled down on hiveswap for the @homestuckss. Hope you like em! PS: if you want I can post a larger Xef talksprite.
Thanks! Classpecting characters in fiction has definitely gotten way easier for me as I figure this stuff out–even with the parts i’m definitely wrong about or not really sure of, its just a really solid framework for character assessment/analysis
Happy to know I’m not the only one who feels that way.
Rose: Interested in psychology, especially in Sigmunt Freund’s theories.When she looked for answers she asked outside sources ( Doc Scratch, Kanaya, Horrorterrors). Interested in writing and reading.
Vriska: She has power of stealing someone’s mind, which may be some connection to Rose’s interest in psychology. But more important, she has wide knowledge about history, which she possessed from Mindfang’s journal.
Aranea: She is obliviously interested in history, sociology, and psychology. Her endless speeches about various topics definitely prove that. It’s also worth notice, that her post-scratch self also had historical knowledge (Mindfang knew about Sufferer and Summoner’s revolution in the future. She gained this knowledge as Rose, from outside sources)
Void:
Roxy: She is not only good with computer, she is master hacker. Her pre-scratch self is scientist, probably involved in some kind of space exploration, as suggest observatory in her house.
Equius: His sign is “Sign of Engineer”. He is interested in robotics, probably in coding, too, since making functioning robot requires some level of IT skills. He probably gained skills needed to build Aradiabot by constant training.
Horuss: As was said by Aranea, he is “Renaissance man”, and master of mechanics. His post-scratch self was also interested in robotics. Self made man, who learned everything by himself.
Epistemology:
Forthose whodon’t know, epistemology is theory of knowledge. It helps us tell apart knowledge, assumptions and opinions. It also helps us tell difference between science and pseudoscience.
So, what is has to do with aspects? A lot.
Light players are ones interested in psychology, historiology, books and stories.
Void players show interest in so called “real science”, not in human-centered studies like light players.
One of the most famous philosophers, Karl Popper saw difference between these kinds of science.
What may appear as weird to us he called Freund’s psychology pseudoscience. Now, we consider psychology as valid science, but then Popper had reason to call it that. Why? Because Freund’s theories was formed in the way that makes them seem always right. For example, Freund said that source of psychological problems lies in our past, but some of the issues could be explained by two different causes, for example sucking a thumb could be explained by not being breastfeed enough or being breastfeed too much or (in case of female patient) penis envy. Now psychologists use scientific methods and make their theories disprovable, but still, there are argues in scientific circle about their reliability.
He pointed out that in order to truly know something we have to try to disprove our believes, find ways to measure them and get rid of subjectivity. For example if we want to find out that bad breastfeeding causes thumb sucking, it’s not reasonable to find someone who claims he was fed to much or not enough and who sucks thumb, because these two things may be coincidence. Sadly, Freund’s study was made like that.
Real scientist would define what means to breast feed “too much” and “not enough” in measurable way and examine set of kids that was fed too much and too little and see if there isconnection.
Karl Popper also disapproved historicism, because he thought that any kind of theories are subjective and are not possible to falsify. How we see, Vriska “replays” events that happened to her ancestor, making passively statement that “history repeats itself”. she is also obsessed with idea of luck, that was not accepted by Karl Popper, because it heavy subjective.
Using subjective outside sources (like diaries or tales) was also disapproved by Karl Popper, because it was also subjective.
On the other hand you can’t be wrong in IT field or robotics, because something works or not. You can only gain knowledge that helps you make something that works better. Roxy and Equius are interested these fields. Roxy hacked Sburb game files and Equius was self-learning robotics gaining skills that were useful in constructing Tavros’ robotic legs or Aradiabot. Mom is scientist. Horuss is interesting one. How was said he is a “Renaissance man” . Mainstream philosophers of Renaissance put mind over emotions. Karl Popper’s philosophy was heavily influenced by Francis Bacon, who was one of the first thinkers that proposed setting off subjective data from scientific theories.
Conclusion
Void bound players are bound to non-subjective facts, science and “lean more toward casting doubt on what is already considered fully understood”
Light players are bound to subjective knowledge and outside sources that they “able to take multiple sources of information and synthesize them into something useful.”
Ack, sorry this took so long! I’ve been really busy and I spent a while trying to figure out what I’d want to say.
I have to be honest, my reading skills in terms of like, high level philosophical stuff is not always the best, so I’m kind of having a hard time following the stuff you said about the philosophers.
That said, I think this is a really compelling contrast, and makes me feel more sure about my view that Light is linked to “idealistic” reality/the World of Ideas and Void to “Materialistic” reality/the World of Matter.
In other words, Void players are more attuned to the physical world. Light players deal more heavily in the world of thought/concepts. I’d say I feel a lot more confident in that idea after reading this, so thank you. :B
This question hits upon a lot of nuances that I’m not sure about myself, so I want to be clear that I don’t have this system figured out by any means. I think it’s consistent enough now that it’s worth talking about, just because there’s so many cases built up, but I don’t understand everything about how it works and I don’t want anyone to regard me as being particularly In The Know, here.
I’m figuring this out as I go along with everyone! And tons of times stuff that other people say sets off a cascade of new startling revelations. This is at least a weekly occurence lately.
So first up, as to Jade:
It’s a possibility that Grimbark is just a joke/parody, so it’s hard to tell if this is just a joke/comment and she’s really only acting like a Witch. Which means I’m not sure, but if she’s roleplaying at all, I’d say her acting like a thief might be a solid bet. It’d mean she’s acting More Active than usual, which does line up with her behavior.
Gotta stress though: I don’t really know if this is a case where roleplay applies. Rose got way longer, so she’s under the cut.
As for Rose, I’d say: In my view, not exactly, with the caveat that I’m honestly not sure here either?
I think Rose is roleplaying as a Witch, and I think she’s doing so partly because she imagines her mom as a Witch (Rose’s inability to really understand Mom is a key part of their conflict, after all). But there’s two important nuances I’d like to clear up:
1) It’s important to understand that Rose trying to be a Witch doesn’t mean she’s not being a Seer! It’s easiest to understand Roleplay as the characters adding Verbs/Archetypal symbols to their behaviors, with their true classes as intrinsic verbs they can’t change.
So Vriska can try to Make stuff and gets associated with Fairy-dom. She can discard that behavior, eventually. But she can’t discard her instincts to Steal/Take things, nor the associated outlaw/pirate imagery.
The same applies to Rose. She’s still a Prophet, and in many cases her Witch behavior acts in service to her prophetic behavior (using magic to tear the prophetic text she wrote into the Void, for example.).
And as she’s also behaving more like an Active class, this also makes her more like an active Prophet. Indeed, Rose is also referenced as a Mage at least once.
I’m not sure what parts of this are actual references and what parts are me reading too much into things, though. I’m just saying the symbolism surrounding this stuff can get muddled, and I’m not enormously sure where the lines get drawn.
2) I don’t think she’s roleplaying a Witch of Void specifically. I think the Void stuff surrounding Rose is likely a side effect–the more she commits to the Witch persona, the more her powers manifest “in defiance of her true Aspect”. And in Homestuck, powers manifesting that way generally tend to default to manifesting as the “opposing” Aspect.
In other words: Rose is just roleplaying a Witch, and aspect switching is what happens with any case of roleplay that’s unhealthy enough. Aspect “inversion” just seems to be the default, when that does occur.
At least, that’s the way I usually feel.
But because of Xefros, Dammek, and Joey, I don’t really think that’s
necessarily the rule. So maybe the Void part is also Roxy’s influence
after all???
It wouldn’t quite be unprecedented. Hal–A Prince of Heart’s– emulation of Dave–A Knight of Time– includes him trying to take over the temporal logistics. So maybe that’s the case after all.
What I will say is that in one respect, it’s crucial to understand Rose as both a Witch of Light and a Witch of Void.
A Witch always has a Familiar, intrinsically linked to their Aspect:
And how succesful they are at self-actualization is linked to how well they take control of their lives from their Familiar, which will protect them, but also try to control them. Jade has Becquerel, a Space Familiar. Feferi has Gl’bolyb, a Life familiar.
In Damara’s case, that Familiar is literally a Patriarch–Lord English, an embodiment of Time itself. And unhappy, miserable, isolated Damara decides she wants to serve him completely.
That’s why the Damara God Tier in the final army against him is such a
big deal, because it means a version of her succeeded in rebelling
against her familiar and asserting her true feelings.
Rose, then, has two Witch familiars, who work together to manipulate her. Her familiars of Void are the Horrorterrors, of course. Interesting that to Feferi, Gl’bolyb is just a fact of life, a reality she has to deal with. To Rose, the horrorterrors represent the absolutely unknowable and unimaginable.
Her Familiar of Light is Doc Scratch. It’s easy enough to say the Cueball represents omniscient knowledge, information, and so Light. But Scratch’s light coding goes quite a bit deeper.
He’s also Rose’s literal Patriarch, since being Dirk’s clone, he is technically her uncle. So yeah, I think Rose’s relationship to Scratch and the Horrorterrors is more visceral and understandable that way, and I wouldn’t want that nuance to be lost because we’re still reading her exclusively as a Witch of Void.
There’s actually a LOT MORE nuance to Scratch’s presentation than I’m expressing here,(surprise! Scratch is also roleplaying!) but this post has to end sometime. So that’s it for now.
Everyone can feel free to send me whatever insights they have one way or another on either point, I just can’t say I have all the answers. I think I’m onto something here, but if I am we’re more than likely gonna uncover most of it together.
Yin 陰 or 阴 Noun ① [philosophy] negative/passive/female principle in nature
Yang 陽 or 阳 Bound morpheme ① [Chinese philosophy] positive/active/male principle in nature
Homestuck inverts the polarities, making Passive classes Positive (+) and Active classes Negative (-) for mysterious reasons. Other than that, the connotations are identical.
Now, Homestuck’s imagery will sometimes fall into this Two-Color character conflict style, and it will serve as our guide for this section. Notice that PM, who is colored in White, is the Active (or Yang) party in this shot–she is preparing to attack Bec Noir. Bec Noir, who is colored in Black, is the Passive (or Yin) party–he is hesitant and uncertain, stunned into inaction by shock.
So we can roughly understand these color-contrast shots as follows:
If the character is colored in White, they are being Active. If the character is colored in Black, they are being Passive.
Now let’s apply this logic to the trolls as the chaos of Horrorstuck plays out, and see what it tells us when combined with the concept of Roleplay. Starting with this: The moment that Eridan kills Kanaya.
Things start off pretty simple here. Eridan, the Prince, is in White. Kanaya, the Sylph, is in Black. Prince is Active, Sylph is Passive, and as we all know, Eridan wins this round decisively, with a simple magic blast.
What’s more interesting is how we got here. Eridan seems to be roleplaying a Magician for this stint–in particular, a Witch, influenced by his interest in Rose and Jade and said to be a “highly Active” Class. He tells Jade he’s moved on from following Dualscar’s destiny, just before trying to get Feferi to betray the team.
Dualscar is a Bard–a Passive class. This means that relatively speaking, Eridan is playing to his strengths as an Active Destroyer more by channeling his energy into a more Active role, explaining his firepower buff. But is it really that easy for Eridan to leave his ancestor behind…?
Let’s come back to that question. Now let’s look at Gamzee, who for this stretch is living up to the image of the Grand High Blood–a Prince of Rage.
This section begins in earnest with Gamzee killing Equius, and–yup. There it is. Gamzee, the Active party, is in white. Equius, the Passive party, is in black. Equius submits to Gamzee’s will, and dies at his hands.
Gamzee is terrifically effective at roleplaying the Grand Highblood–he goes on to set Terezi up to kill Vriska in a grisly re-enactment of Redglare and Mindfang’s showdown at the Grand Highblood’s order. But this rampage comes at a personal cost.
Gamzee is incredibly unstable during this period, with the whole loud honking and red eyes thing. Insofar as we’re allowed into his head, Gamzee does not seem particularly comfortable or at ease in this role! It’s only once Karkat calms him down that he reverts to his more Passive role, and begins acting like his normal self again.
So we’ve got two instances of Active behavior linked to White, and Passive behavior linked to Black. We’ve also seen that roleplaying can explain how Gamzee changes from his traditional role of Passive destruction, to one of Active destruction–at a personal cost.
Now let’s look at an example that incorporates both Yin/Yang and Roleplay for both parties, in the conclusion of the 3x Showdown between Eridan, Vriska and Gamzee.
Of course, we’re actually interested in Kanaya, who turns out to dominate this fight utterly. Kanaya is one of the few highbloods who seems completely uninterested in roleplay. But then, in this context, maybe she doesn’t have to be.
Vriska suggests that a player’s destiny is tied to their Ancestors’, and while this definitely involves an element of “choosing to take on the life they left for you”, it also seems to have Karmic implications.
The Dolorosa, after all, is interwoven in the story of The Grand Highblood, Mindfang, and Dualscar–she becomes Mindfang’s slave, and is murdered by Dualscar.
Despite his claims to having moved on from Dualscar’s legacy, in this flash, Eridan is cast in his shadow. Meaning he’s being placed in the role of a Passive player, in the context of this sequence.
So Kanaya isn’t just getting revenge for Eridan’s crimes–there’s an implication she’s making up for Dualscar’s cruelty to her Ancestor, as well. Finishing what Dualscar started, so to speak. The Dolorosa being a Maid, we can understand Kanaya as roleplaying a Maid of Space.
And a Maid of Space is one who Makes Space…
For her own benefit. Bard is Passive is Black. Maid is Active is White.
A couple side notes:
1) Kanaya, like Gamzee, seems pretty drained after her spurt of intense Active behavior. Roleplaying as a more Active class can be effective in the short term, but it also seems pretty exhausting, as a general rule of thumb.
2) Given that Kanaya is revived as a Rainbow Drinker–a creature of fantasy–and that she glows pure Hope-White, we could even read Eridan here as inviting his own destruction through Hope. Just one of those little things I find so satisfying with Homestuck.
3) Relating Kanaya with the Dolorosa like this gives us some extra nuance with which to understand Vriska’s flash of red feelings for her. She related to Eridan and Tavros primarily in the terms set by their ancestors, after all–small wonder she’d find Kanaya more exciting as she completed her own Ancestor’s work, as well.
I found this pretty exciting once it came together for me, so I hope it does for you too. Let me know what you think! That’s all for now.
Flying through Storytelling 