My gf and I have been watching Hunter x Hunter and I thought you’d like to hear our classpects for the main crew (as far as we know we’re still relatively early in the series [episode 33]): Gon as Thief of Breath, Killuwa as Prince of Blood, Leorio as Maid of Life, and Kurapika as Knight of Void. Have a nice day dude.

Nice!!!!!!!! Those are cool picks :B Let me know if your thoughts change as the series continues, and you too! 

Witch of Space==> Ascend

What is Jade Harley’s Story?


Alright here we go I finally get to write about Jade. My biggest Homestuck secret is that for how relatively little I talk about her, Jade is actually probably my favorite Beta kid.

I love the others and Rose and Dave in particular are intensely personal to me but Jade vibed with me in a way pretty much no character in fiction ever did because she’s an unabashed furry and that’s basically the subculture that raised my preteen catholic ass.

So Jade means a lot to me, and the way her narrative grows has always spoken to me as much as Dave’s narrative about overcoming toxic masculinity, or Rose’s struggle to find existential meaning. In a way, Jade’s struggle IS Rose’s struggle! Jade and Rose have narratives that lead us to twin conclusions about the nature of Homestuck’s reality.

That’s getting ahead of myself though, and I’m going to do this wild thing where I try to impose some structure on my approach so hopefully you can come away with a clear idea of what I think Homestuck is doing. (I want to give special thanks to @landofsomethingsomething for helping me out with the feedback that led me to striving to improve in this respect.)

So. This post has three thesis statements that I hope you come away with at least seriously considering, if not outright buying into.

1. Jade’s character arc was as thought out and deliberate as any of the kids’. She was not “shafted” by the story. The two reasons fans most likely seem to think she was were the Three Years trip she spent alone, and that she “didn’t do anything in Collide”. I believe both are misreadings of the canon.

2. Jade’s arc is meaningful both for herself and for the broader narrative, and builds to one of the most important revelations about Homestuck’s universe.

3. Jade and Davepeta are not only canon but deeply romantic, and Davepeta stands to improve one of the biggest reasons fans feel Jade got “shafted”–not to mention that some fans might take issue with Jade’s lack of a romantic arc, and Davepeta…well…is her romantic arc.

But before we can talk about where Jade’s arc succeeds, we need to talk about what it is, which means we need to talk about her title–Witch of Space. For the record, here’s my view on the mythological roles:

They aren’t a pasted on set of superpowers, and they aren’t given to the kids by Skaia. The titles describe the nature the kids had all along, and the way their patterns of thought reflect onto the world around them. They also foreshadow their narrative arcs and trajectories in their entireties–Just like the titles Hussie was inspired by in creating the system, the Hero of Time and Hero of the Winds structure from the Legend of Zelda.

I’ll begin by tracking Jade’s similarities to her fellow Witches and Space players. By pointing these out I believe I should be able to give you an idea of what I think Jade’s arc is about, exactly.

After that, I’ll expand my reading of Jade as a Witch of Space to include her later narrative turns, as well as explaining how I feel Davesprite–and later Davepeta–is inherently tangled up in her arc, as well as being a better romantic partner for Jade than basically anyone else in the story.

Let’s go. I’m hoping this is the beginning of something really excellent.


Where lies the Witch’s magic?

The first striking similarity between Witches is their bond with an outside force much more powerful than they are representing their Aspect. For Jade, this is Becquerel. For Feferi, it’s Gl’bolyb-who is about as Lifey an entity as it gets. It is, after all, defined by being unknowably massive, incomprehensible Living things, with conscious awareness of its own.

It is simply a completely alien kind of Life to our own, and thus the Cosmic Horror. Gl’bolyb also requires the consumption of vast quantities of Life that Feferi has to provide it, tying it to Life’s themes of edible consumption. More on Life stuff when I write about Jane soon, though.



Like Jade, Feferi has little direct power early in her life. But she’s able to accomplish stunning feats through her connection to her guardian–which functions effectively as a Witch’s familiar. Before ascension, a Witch’s power is linked to the symbol that identifies her as a Witch in the first place.

Feferi is also ambitious. Not only did Feferi originally aim to change the rules of Life in troll society imposed by the Condesce’s will, but through her connection to the Horrorterrors, she’s able to fundamentally change the rules of Life on a metaphysical level, allowing Ghosts to exist inside dream bubbles in an unnatural limbo.

Damara has an outside power figure linked to Time, too–Lord English, who she associates with and wishes to work for. She also changes her relationship with Time–turning it into a weapon to use against her friends as revenge as opposed to a tool and series of systems she needs to serve like Aradia and Dave do during their sessions. She’s quite willful and ambitious about both her relationship to her “Familiar” and her use of her Aspect.

Both witches are driven primarily by their own ambitions and desires, and both witches are also fundamentally Changed by their Aspects. Feferi loses her life and becomes a ghost, her will becoming almost indistinguishable from the Horrorterrors’. And Damara’s primary use of her Aspect coincides with a drastic change in outlook and personality, making her cynical, bitter, and willing to serve her Familiar over connecting with others.

Now–if Witches are ambitious about and defined by both changing and being changed by the domain of their Aspect, then what is Jade’s field of ambition in this regard? To answer this question, it’ll help to look at her fellow Space players.

The weight of Space


We don’t see Porrim pre-session, but from their introductions, Jade, Kanaya and Calliope are all defined by a unique passion for Sburb. This makes sense–Sburb, after all, is the construct that defines the Space they will exist in their entire lives.


Waking early on Prospit also essentially makes them grow up in two environments–places–at once, meaning that they grow up influenced by the culture inherent to two different environments.

This is particularly notable with Kanaya, who is uniquely untouched by Troll culture compared to her friends. Her morals are much more aligned with Sburbs’ spirit of growth and cooperation, and she takes a passionate interest in fashion–which is to say, the expression of ideas about oneself through clothes.

This kind of self-expression is something Sburb encourages constantly, and is in fact it’s core philosophy. Kanaya internalizes it completely to such an extent her identity is created by her relationship to Sburb–and Space–much more than by her relationship to Troll culture. Calliope, too, is so inspired by Sburb’s philosophy of cooperation and possibility that it works against her Cherub sociology.


This connection also allows them to use the insight gained from one environment to influence the other. Space players tend to set the stage for their own sessions, laying the Setting for their games in their own unique ways.

Calliope–the Muse of Space–inspired Dirk and Roxy to set the stage for the Alpha session, and influenced Jake into setting the stage for the Beta session as well. Lord English’s particular exploitation of Trolls was also influenced by her, setting the grim stage for both the troll sessions as well. Kanaya used Rose’s guide and her visions to help set up her session, too.


Finally, all Space players seem to end up somehow becoming entities they surround themselves with and are influenced by in life, in this sense being drastically affected by their own environments. Kanaya grew up influenced by troll rainbow drinker novels, and just so happened to develop an affinity for the Alternian sun.


And once she died, she was outright reborn into one. Sylphs being the Passive Creation class, this makes sense–Kanaya heals and Re-Creates herself as her own ideal image. If her ability to do so is intrinsic to her being, that’s no surprise, since Sylphs are considered a kind of Fairy or Elemental, and so are intrinsically connected to and created by their Aspect.

Once she transforms, she gains super speed–ie: an increased ability to navigate space– and the ability to fill her environment with Light, which she always found highly desirable. This pattern is repeated across Space players–Calliope is able to inspire others to see her as a Troll, while Jade is able to deliberately Change herself into a Furry. More on that later in this essay.


Now a picture begins to emerge.

The Witch is the Active Change class. One could parse the title as:

One who Changes X, or Changes through X.

With the corollary attribute of One who is Changed By X.

And as Sburb defines everything about the setting of Homestuck, and the enviroments of Space players growing up. And given Witch’s ambition and zeal, it makes perfect sense to think Jade’s ambition and execution would concern Changing not just Space, but Sburb itself.


Which is true! Among the main kids, Jade is uniquely passionate about actually playing the game. She sets up her session, gets Rose interested, and takes charge of orchestrating and executing the plan that leads to the Beta’s victory.

And she is uniquely changed by the environments the game exposes her to–the divide between Jade’s Dream Self and her Waking Self is by far the widest of any Player.

Dream Jade is relatively pampered and aloof, and while having access to a whole other world makes Waking Jade’s life far less distressing and lonely than it might otherwise have been, she still ends up more practical.


And once the game really gets going, also more demanding. In her desire to protect people and be an asset, Jade holds herself to a very high standard. As such, she actively tries to be strong and keep an upbeat attitude, and in execution Jade’s approach to this is quite similar to John’s–she ends up coming off as weirdly emotionally detached from the consequences of what she’s doing.

The difference is that Jade willfully uses that detachment for her own benefit, like Jake does. After all, reviving Dream Jade this way directly leads Jade to becoming a God Tier, and embodying Space as a First Guardian.


Dream Jade, meanwhile, dies, and is greatly changed by the stagnancy and fatalism inherent to the Dream Bubbles. Jade tries to comfort Jadesprite, but this also brings us to another core facet of Jade’s. Jade has a habit of bottling up her emotions in a big way, like Jane. Jade wants to be reliable and useful, and to her that parses as a focus on practicality and solution-oriented thinking.

So when Jadesprite–who’s another version of her–fails to live up to her standards, Jade tries to be caring… but tries to find practical solutions which go ignored as Jadesprite copes with the trauma of her circumstances. Jade’s frustration with the game, with Jadesprite’s defeatism, and with Jadesprite as a reflection of herself build until finally she gets fed up and…



Blows a gasket. Jade’s got self-loathing issues just like anyone in Homestuck, and for her they manifest as being angry at what she could’ve become under different circumstances. She hates Jadesprite for being so malleable to her environment, and for being something she sees in herself–Selfish. Jade didn’t think too much about Becquerel before creating Jadesprite, after all, did she? Active classes are intrinsically self-motivated, and Jade is no exception.


Jadesprite is the only character Jade is quite this cruel to other than Karkat, who torments her for years and exhausts her with hyperemotional debates that distract her and waste her time. But this attitude is still something she carries across her relationships. She’s kind to Tavros, but his logic turns circular for long enough that she gets frustrated and turns their attention towards practical matters.



She extends much more time and patience to her friends, consoling Rose when her Mom dies…but even then is immediately concerned about what she will do with her feelings. In this pesterlog she also begins to question the nature of the game they’re playing, beginning to note Sburb seems outright cruel at times–foreshadowing her more intense struggles with the nature of the Space she inhabits.


Which brings us to Davesprite. Dave and Jade had a special relationship growing up, and Davesprite is a Dave brought into being by the game Jade is so invested in. And Davesprite is the one who finds Jadesprite at her lowest, and comforts her. He then makes her aware of her own power…



And encourages either Jade’s first great feat of magic as a Witch of Space. Immediately after this, Jade ascends, becoming one with Jadesprite and bringing the entire session under control–an action Davesprite bears witness to in it’s entirety. Soon after, Jade and Davesprite start dating during the three year’s boat trip. But…


It doesn’t work out. Why?


Well, there’s two reasons. The first is that Dave is an abuse victim, and that isn’t really the kind of trauma Jade could easily relate to–she’s been exposed to neglect and isolation, but the experience of being subjugated under an overbearing guardian would be alien to her– and she never takes it particularly seriously growing up.


Grimbark Jade clues us in on the second. Davesprite also feels set apart from the kids, distanced by his Sprite status. He considers himself auxiliary to Alpha Dave, the same way Hal does with Dirk. John even rubs it in a couple of times, and openly wonders about Davesprite’s importance relative to Alpha Dave himself. And of course, Davesprite himself admits it.

This is something Jade can relate to to some extent–she was solely a Sprite for a time, and distanced and set apart from all society besides that. But the game fixed both of those for Jade, through bringing her closer to her friends and God Tiering. Not so for Davesprite.


Note what these issues have in common, though: Neither abuse trauma nor existential marginalization are problems that come with practical, tidy solutions–which are Jade’s instinctive method of dealing with things.

Jade wants to look for something to Do about everything, but there’s nothing to really Do for Davesprite. So Jade bottles her feelings of frustration up, only to have them come out when she goes Grimbark. But even while evil, brainwashed, and pissed off about Davesprite breaking up with her…


She still sticks up for Davesprite’s validity and personhood. Now, let’s move on to the retcon.

Davepeta happens, obviously–Nepeta acting as a Rogue to “Steal” Dave’s Heart for his own benefit. Davesprite transcends both his issues with his Bro and his tortured sense of auxiliary identity. Nepeta benefits from this arrangement, too–but we’re talking about Jade, so let’s see how the retcon treats her.



In the Post-Retcon version of the three years trip, Jade ends up completely alone and isolated. Fans usually hate this about her arc, but hear me out, because this is where I make my case for the first point I laid out at the beginning of this:

This isn’t just about tormenting or “shafting” Jade. It isn’t Hussie being lazy or not caring about her. Jade is struggling with her Aspect, the same way Dirk is tormented by his Splinters, Terezi by her Choices, and so on. And as she struggles with Space, she also struggles with the Game–and the label it seemingly “assigns” her. Space.

She dreams about and meets Alt!Calliope, who tells her the Game has ordained this tragic reality for her, and as a result Jade feels distanced and set apart from her friends–just as Davesprite once did. When she meets Alt!Calliope again, she reinforces this notion, seemingly telling Jade that it is in a Space player’s nature to be alone.


But that’s not all she tells her. As she’s exposed to the fully-fledged Muse of Space the longest, Jade is also uniquely privy to the deepest secret of the nature of all of the entire Homestuck multiverse. A secret implied and built up to literally from the moment John first bites Sburb’s apple and enters the game(citation pending–I’ve got that video recorded already):


That Paradox Space is composed out of the abstractions of thought called the Aspects. This is the root of my second point, that Jade’s narrative is important both for herself and the wider Homestuck storynot to mention our understanding of it’s Multiverse.


The implications of this stunning revelation are enormous. Calliope literally states that ideas are made up of the Aspects, and what the Alchemy system does is make physical objects out of ideas. All of Paradox Space grows outwards from these twelve tiny elements of thought, and so reality is literally something created by those perceiving it. In Homestuck, existence is created by thought–and so too is all physical matter.

This is why I argue all depictions of Light in Homestuck symbolically contain the Light Aspect’s fundamental ideasbecause Light as a physical presence is simply a concentrated enough amount of Light aspect abstractions to be visible in physical reality. The same is true of every Aspect–in this same sense, you can argue all food is made out of Life, and all absence out of Void.

Imagine being granted the key to understanding the entire universe. That’s what is happening here. Jade doesn’t understand all of it right away, but the core idea gets across. And understanding the true nature of reality this way could take Jade’s interest in science to an entire other level. There’s practically no limit to what she could do with this information, I mean–if all of reality is created by thought, then what are the real limits of what’s possible for anyone?

Having delivered this information, Calliope leaves–leaving Jade as close to the biggest symbol of Space in the comic–the Green Sun–as she could get. Jade lingers, waiting, under the impression she is inherently meant to simply comply with the will of her Aspect and Paradox Space, when along comes…


Davesprite, freed of all the issues that made their relationship originally unworkable. Only now it’s Davepeta, and Davepeta is a wholly new entity, completely and utterly defined by their relationship to the Game that functions as one of Jade’s primary domains of power and influence. It would be literally impossible for Jade to have met any version of any person even remotely like Davepeta elsewhere. It had to be here. It had to be through Sburb.

Davepeta also has unique insight into the nature of the Player’s ultimate reality, and is one of the few characters with more insight into that reality than Jade herself.

In keeping with the Light motif with Homestuck’s romantic relationships, Jade lingers in the dark Void of her loneliness, not knowing whether she should Do anything, by a hyper-incandescent 2xSprite, an entity literally created to provide aid and information as well as giving off Light physically.

As if that weren’t enough, Davepeta is also a twice over Passive player–a Knight who serves their friends Time, or serves them through Time, and a Rogue who can Steal Hearts for the benefit of others.

And Davepeta is also coded as a cat and a bird, simultaneously–the two animals most commonly associated with Witches.

Do you see where I’m going with this? Now that Jade is a fully ascended Witch who has mastered Space, along comes Davepeta, framed perfectly to act as the Witch’s Familiar. A Familiar whose existence reflects not just dominion over Physical Space, but mastery over both Sburb and the nature of Paradox Space.


And what does Davepeta do when it’s, for once, Jade at a loss for what to do next, trapped in a circular spiral of logic on whether to even move forward? Davepeta says that’s dumb, and that Jade should do whatever she wants to, and offers her a practical solution to help her do it. Making it clear that Davepeta is capable of being a partner and aid to Jade’s desires and ambitions.


Jade then wakes up, and decides to follow Davepeta’s (and Calliope’s) advice: She has fun.

In Collide, Jade chooses not to fight, but rather to use her space powers to play with Bec Noir and PM, distracting them and keeping them busy. Doing this leads her to Changing the game in the most powerful way possible.

The two First Guardians are completely equalized by Bec’s influence on them, making them equal in power…but also giving them equally powerful feelings of love for Jade.

This gives PM the advantage. PM is the one able to control her own emotions, find nuance in her situation, and take a middle solution between really hurting Jade and complete inaction–which Jack is unable to do.


By setting up this situation, Jade turns the core fatalism of Sburb on it’s head — setting up a scenario where White can do the impossible and defeat Black itself. That’s about as “Changing” the nature of “Space” as it gets–a Witch of Space, fully realized.

And now Jade is hanging out, happy with her friends and not lonely or isolated at all. Jade is having fun and enjoying herself on Earth C. That’s a pretty satisfying narrative, as far as I’m concerned.

Jade struggled, but she also gained unique insight and knowledge entirely in keeping with her Aspect. At the very least, considering the importance of the information Jade got from her journey and all the thematic imagery surrounding it, I think it’s likely that approach was intentional and not a byproduct of Hussie “not caring about Jade” or “shafting” her.

Whether you guys do or don’t like where he took Jade’s arc is another conversation, albeit one I’m willing to have–I’m just arguing there was intent behind the chaos.

That said, now I’m going to do something I don’t usually like to do, and speculate about Jade’s future a little.

I personally think Jade’s “arc” is complete enough as it stands now–Davepeta’s a compelling romantic partner, but it’s not like Jade necessarily needs a romance in the first place. I won’t be upset if I end up wrong about this stuff–
I just think the nature of all this build up between Jade and Davepeta makes it more likely than any alternatives I can think of.

So here’s some thoughts about the Epilogue you may want to consider:

Whether Davepeta will survive to meet up with her again is, admittedly, an open question…but considering all this narrative buildup, the fact that we already know Sprites exist past the end of the Game, and that Davepeta already fought Lord English and survived, I have a hard time believing they’re going to be killed off at this point.

Especially considering [S] Credits is clearly setting up the Masterpiece, and if we see the Beta kids get sucked into that Juju it’s likely we’ll also see them pop out the other end…in the Void, where Davepeta is.

And one last thing:

We already saw Roxy steal something from nothing, so it’s not impossible to think Davepeta could reach across the Timelines they already see, and steal the Heart or Time Game Over Jade spent with John and Davesprite in the original timeline back from the Game that took those experiences from her–fitting into Jade’s motif of Cheating the game to suit her desires.

This is the nature of my third and final point–that on top of everything else Davepeta adds to Jade’s narrative, they could subvert the lasting pain and suffering the Game inflicted on Jade across those three years, enabling her to remember her relationship with Davesprite, and also potentially giving John and Roxy another person who remembers the old timeline.

No idea if that’s gonna happen, or be shown in detail if it is. I just think that given the sheer depth in which Davepeta’s and Jade’s arcs are interwoven, it’s not impossible. If it doesn’t, I’m personally pretty happy with Davepeta giving Jade some good advice and helping her out at the end. Feel free to let me know what you think! 🙂

Alright, that’s all I got on Jade for now, guys. Hoping to write one post about Jane soon, but I’m going to be refocusing back towards video editing and job hunting, so these written posts may slow while I devote more energy to making videos. This has essentially been a side project to my Homestuck, Explained series as I gathered my thoughts on the endgame enough that I thought it warranted posting some more of them.

If you’re interested in enabling me to write more of these posts and making more videos, it’d be cool of you to check out my Patreon. We’ve got a neat little Discord community of Homestuck aficionados thinking and talking about a bunch of different Homestuck analysis topics, and doing so can also get you perks like previews of my video scripts and previews of the videos themselves.

That’s all for now, peeps. As always, thanks a ton for reading.

See you again soon, everyone.

Until then, Keep Rising.


Originally published at revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com.

Here’s a theory* that need to gain more traction:

classesandaspects:

classofaspect:

The binary system of Aspects is wrong! Just completely unable to be true.

Why? Because Aspects aren’t one single thing that matches up neatly with one other singular Aspect. Parts of the Aspects will of course make neat little parallels, or opposites. But the WHOLE Aspect? No, not a chance.

Example: Void! (I love Void, you can’t help but love your own Aspect, I feel) Void is described as primarily the essence of Lack, but also of Obfuscation. It’s often paired with Light, and on some notes I agree! Part of Void is “Lack of Clarity/Knowledge” and part of Light is “Knowledge/Understanding”**. Nice and clear opposites!

But, and here’s where a lot of Classpect*** theories start to fall apart: Void is not described and cannot reasonably assumed to be “Lack of Fortune”. You can’t really just put “lack” in front of a word and make it – Tah Dah! – Void-y. Likewise, Light isn’t described as “the essence of being”. On these facets, the comparison makes no sense! So saying that “Light is just Not!Void” as an end all be all of the conversation is just…not true.

But you know what is the opposite of Void’s “nothing”? Space! and that’s something you never see mentioned: Space is sometimes an opposite, sometimes intermingled with Void!

This kind of component-based analysis of Aspects make so so so much more comprehensive, it’s such a better tool to describe Aspects (or just in general).

And it makes for so many really interesting comparisons! Light and Rage have a few stark similarities! Hope and Void do too, in some ways! Time and Doom. Blood and Time. Space and Life. Breath and Heart. Heart and Time. There’s lots of similar or “opposite” facets of these Aspects, and they are usually lost if you’re only concerned about “yeah, but whats the nega-Breath? What’s the anti-Mind? What’s the bizarro-Hope?”

* There’s two theories, this one and the one I’m railing against lol
** I see Light as more of “Interpretation” as a core, and “Fortune” as a semi-related concept.
*** Probably could have changed this to “classpect theorists” meh

It’s not only the opposites between aspects but the similarities that are missed with the Aspect Duality system.  Space is related to Life via frog breeding.  Space is opposed by Hope via their female/male and successful/failed sexuality, respectively.  Void is opposed by both Light and Space, as described by OP – and also that the symbol of Void consists of the “voids” within the Space symbol (I’m p sure this was confirmed by Hussie, but I can’t find a source) – yet Light and Space don’t seem to have much of anything in common of either opposites or similarities.  Life and Breath are also the same symbol, turned sideways, and Doom and Time both have the gear motif in their symbols in addition to their general themes of death and inevitability.

Unfortunately, it’s also difficult to isolate the influence of the Aspects from the individual characters.  Space is female sexuality through frog breeding, Rosemary, and Porrim’s red flings – basically the only successful flush relationships in the entire comic – but then again the Maryams are both Virgo, and Jade hasn’t had a successful relationship yet.  Life and Breath seem related through their perseverance and ability to keep moving forward, but then again so are Jane and John.  Same with Heart and Time, due to Dirk and Dave.  And hell, same with Void and Light as opposites, due to Roxy and Rose.

There are some Aspects that work well in opposing pairs.  Space and Time, obviously, and even more so since that’s one of the pairs Hussie started with (the other being Light and Breath). (<– Rachel also says inversion isn’t a thing at that link.)  I also think that Heart and Mind are solid opposites, despite seriously disagreeing with the way that most of the fandom jumped to the emotion vs logic, duh!!! conclusion and rarely looks further.

But a few pairs doesn’t prove the existence of the entire system.

If you guys don’t mind me chiming in, I have a bit of a counterpoint.
I basically agree that there are all sorts of resonances between the Aspects, and that the focus on the established binaries tends to make people miss them.
I think this is unfortunate because we definitely lose a lot of depth that way. 

However, the pairs themselves are still real. I would not describe them as opposites, but rather as specifically dichotomous or, better yet, complementary, as Tex Talks describes them.  

This is because I don’t think that, for example, Void lacking a connotation of misfortune (an idea I’d argue against anyway) means that Void does not present an existential counterpoint to Light. The symmetries don’t have to be perfectly exact to paint a compelling picture in the broad strokes.

But more on that later.

Since you quoted softowl, I may as well mention that in an exchange with Bladekindeyewear where she debunked Inversion theory, she actually agreed with him about the aspect pairs themselves. 

i DO say u can arrange aspects in contrasting or dichotomous pairs. however, i DON’T think that has an impact into how acting against one’s class manifests.

i think you were typing this as I was typing my reply to myself!! i essentially agree with what you’ve just said, up to and including the pairs. it’s where you take it a step further that i disagree. http://www.reddit.com/r/homestuck/comments/2ik4as/was_this_theory_debunked_or_did_this_guy_know/cl3bbj8

And in the quote you linked to from her, there’s an interesting little tidbit of information.

Andrew said that he started with Light and Breath, and then Time and Space, as the things you need for creation. Light and Breath being the more metaphysical concepts (especially influenced by Western canon/Christian thought, given that that’s deeply fused to our culture), Time and Space being the more quantifiable ones.

Which actually suggests more strongly than anything that there are indeed Aspect pairs, given the source Hussie was drawing on. I’ll be posting an essay on this on Monday so I’m not gonna go into much depth here, but I’m talking about the Gnostic concept of Aeons.  

Gnosticism is pretty much a conglomerate of obscure Christian mystic and alternative spiritual practices, and it is definitely part of the canon softowl references, since it’s where Abraxas and Yaldabaoth get their names and theres all sorts of other references to it in the story.

The Gnostic gist is that, n the “Nothing” before Creation, the One True God/Source of Light and Knowledge emanates a series of Idea-Gods known as “Aeons”. These Aeons were created in pairs, and were meant to create reality by working together “in harmony”.

So what you’ve got is beings of God-like power, bonded in pairs, who together create all of reality, yet exist entirely as Ideas rather than existing as concrete, physical entities. And Ideas are essentially what the Aspects are–conveyed as they are entirely through symbols, color and thought rather than specific language or concrete physicality. 

As with Yin-Yang’s applicability to the Active/Passive spectrum and Classes, the Gnostic concept of Aeons seems to be the closest analogue to Homestuck I’ve seen yet, so I think it’s worth bringing up here. Understanding the Aspects as akin to Gods also sort of helps me imagine how they might be understood to have “Wills” of any sort, as Calliope implies. 

As with the last one, hope this helps or that you found it interesting!

I’m trying to analyse the classes, but I was wondering: apart from the Infinitywhale/BKEW system are any other widely accepted systems/theories? (I’m not sure if you take questions like this so sorry if you don’t I just thought you’d be the person who has seen the most classpect theories).

Just wanted to chime in for a second about this question:

Can a player appear entirely active even if they are in a passive class?  How closely does active/passive relate to the player’s actions?  How much did Rose’s status as a Derse dreamer affect the activity/passivity of her class?  How good is Hussie’s storytelling, actually?  What else might the readers be wrong about?

Because as it happens, Hussie’s actually talked about it. I usually don’t do word of god stuff, but this particular quote is handy in exemplifying how Hussie might think about the Active/Passive dichotomy.

For reference, here is the quote:

classesandaspects:

This is a really good question!

First of all, not really.  BKEW’s system is the most popular by a wide margin.  Although that might be partially due to the fact that he serves as a very well-known figurehead. Theorists who think similarly to him will stumble onto his pages very easily and probably end up adopting the whole system, or something similar to it.  Alternate systems, on the other hand, usually share some common theories with each other but can differ widely in the specifics based on the reader’s personal interpretations.

Also, just the fact that BKEW is so popular means that any novice reader trying to get into classpect will probably see his theories first and form their own theories based on BKEW’s system.  Most of the theories I see use class/aspect concepts very similar to BKEW’s own, even if they end up at different conclusions.

Deviation from BKEW’s system is most apparent in Aspect Pairs or Aspect Duality.  (I really need to fix those tags eventually.)  Everyone knows BKEW’s aspect system:

LIGHT – VOID

SPACE – TIME

HEART – MIND

LIFE – DOOM

HOPE – RAGE

BREATH – BLOOD

and the next most common system is probably what I call the What Pumpkin system, named after the graphic that they had on their site and due to the fact that this aspect presentation tends to appear mostly in official Homestuck media:

image

BREATH – LIGHT

TIME – SPACE

MIND – HEART

LIFE – VOID

HOPE – DOOM

BLOOD – RAGE

And then there are aspect systems that differ entirely from these two. I can’t describe them all here, but I do recommend going through my Aspect Pairs/Duality tags linked above to see the ones I’ve collected so far.  Those posts almost always describe each aspect, so you can compare aspect definitions from there too.

As for classes,

(This is off the top of my head so I’m sure I’ve missed a few, but I think I got the most popular ones and haven’t been too badly biased by my own theories)

KNIGHT

  • Verb: “exploit” or “protect” (sometimes “protect/serve”)
  • -/+: contested, usually active
  • Paired with: Page (active ”exploit”), Maid (passive ”protect/serve”)

HEIR

  • Verb: “change/manipulate/control” “protect” “create” or “invite”
  • -/+: contested, usually passive
  • Paired with: Witch (passive ”change”), Mage (”create” or ”invite”), 

WITCH

  • Verb: “change/manipulate”
  • -/+: active (confirmed word-of-Huss)
  • Paired with: Heir, Sylph, Mage

SEER

  • Verb: “know” or “guide”
  • -/+: passive (confirmed word-of-Huss) but I have seen active by a few theorists*
  • Paired with: Mage (”know”) or much less commonly Maid (”guide”)

MAGE

  • Verb: “know” “invite” or “suffer”
  • -/+: usually active; passive if the theory is more centered on how shit tends to just happen to the Mage
  • Paired with: Seer (”know”), Heir (”invite” or “suffer”)

SYLPH

  • Verb: “heal/repair” “change/manipulate” “create” or “guide”
  • -/+: almost always passive
  • Paired with: Witch (passive ”change/manipulate”), Maid (passive ”create” or “guide”); I think I’ve seen Seer (active “guide”) at least once as well

MAID

  • Verb: “create” “provide” “repair” “protect” “serve” “guide”
  • -/+: usually active
  • Paired with: Sylph (active ”repair” or “guide”), Sylph or Heir (active ”create”), Knight or Heir (”protect”), Page (active ”provide” or ”serve”), Seer (active ”guide”)

PAGE

  • Verb: “provide” “serve” “grow” “exploit”
  • -/+: passive
  • Paired with: Heir (passive ”grow/change”) Knight (passive ”exploit”) Maid (passive “create” or ”serve”)

Then the classes PRINCE, BARD, ROGUE, and THIEF are usually accepted as given by Calliope in-comic.

in my experience the theorists who suggest the Seer is active are going entirely based on in-comic evidence and have not seen the word-of-Huss that confirms the Seer is passive.  (Which is really interesting to me.  Can a player appear entirely active even if they are in a passive class?  How closely does active/passive relate to the player’s actions?  How much did Rose’s status as a Derse dreamer affect the activity/passivity of her class?  How good is Hussie’s storytelling, actually?  What else might the readers be wrong about?

You could also look to the passive/active nature of the classes in making some retroactive sense of the Derse/Prospit dreamer duality. Passive/active classes are also a pretty vague thing, and don’t resolve so easily into simple dualities like defensive/offensive and such. Those are the guidelines for understanding them, but there is clearly a lot of flexibility within that system. They seem to suggest tendencies rather than absolute capabilities. Like there isn’t a rule that says a passive class could never use an offensive technique. The system is meant to be very flexible, and in the story, classes suggest a little more about a hero’s path and role in the greater quest than what their battle capabilities are.

But if we’re saying active/passive literally translates to offensive/defensive for the sake of this topic, then Derse would be very active and Prospit would be very passive. Derse’s job is to attack. Prospit’s is to defend. This seems to carry over to the roles of the dreamers too. Dave and Rose turned out to be very active players. Dave time traveling all over the place, making a fortune on stocks and such. Rose went on her crazy solo mission to break the game and fight Jack. Jade and John had more passive roles through most of that, players who were “acted upon” by other players and circumstances. John was always being led around by trolls this way and that, drifting around wherever the wind took him. Jade was especially passive for a lot of the story, spending a lot of time falling asleep (or being put to sleep) at key moments. It wasn’t until she reached god tier as a Witch (said to be a highly active class) that she became extremely active, making lots of stuff happen, rounding up planets and all that. Rose may have been a similar case, being excessively active as a Derse dreamer, but then flipping over to a passive role upon reaching god tier as a passive class.

Being from Derse means you are from a culture of offense and aggression. Being from Prospit means the opposite. You could argue that these are qualities that either rub off on the dreamers, or they are designated as those dreamers in the first place because of those qualities. You could take the view that these are innate tendencies to overcome, as seemed to be the case for Jade and Rose. Or maybe sometimes they are tendencies that are resisted, and need to be understood and embraced. As a Prospit dreamer, did Karkat struggle because he was actually passive in nature, but had a very active self image as a leader and conqueror? Was Vriska an even more extreme case of misplaced active behavior from a Prospit dreamer? These are yet more things to consider when looking at everything contributing to the hero story of an individual in this game.

So yes, a Passive player can behave Actively, and vice versa. It’s also worth noting that Calliope’s description of Active/Passive references another existential dichotomy concerned with behavior sometimes called “active” and “passive”–the Yin-Yang. 

Full disclosure: I’ve written about the implications of Yin-Yang for understanding the Active/Passive spectrum previously. While confident, I’m not married to the idea that I’m right about each pair or verb. But I do think the Yin-Yang connection itself is pretty much inarguable, and popularizing it would go a long way to improving fandom understanding of Active/Passive as a system.

hope this helps, or that you at least find it interesting!

PS: While I’m here, I feel It’s worth noting how Hussie casts doubt on the nature of Knights, leaving it pretty ambiguous as to whether the class itself is active or passive. 

Part #2: The Neverending Story —

Muse/Lord & The rules of Paradox Space




[Spoilers for The Neverending Story]

I’m not the first to note Homestuck’s references to AURYN, the magical amulet from The Neverending Story. The symbol of the intertwined black and white snakes is directly referenced only twice in Homestuck’s story, and both times it tells us a mind-boggling amount about the nature and function of Homestuck’s universe.

And even that only scratches the surface. So instead of starting off with Homestuck, let me tell you a little bit about The Neverending Story.


The Neverending Story is a book split in two. In the most commonly printed version, it comes in Red and Green text halves. The real world, the realm of humans where you and I live–those sections are printed in Red. Fantastica, the world of fiction and stories and all things imaginary, is printed in green.

And as with two sections, The Neverending Story is split into two central figures:

The Childlike Empress, and Bastian Balthazar Bux.

Muse & Lord


In the green-lettered plains of Fantastica, The Childlike Empress rules over all. Although her authority is accepted by even the most evil and mostrous in Fantastica, she never gives orders. Even so, she is both eternal and eternally childlike. Good and evil are equal in her eyes. She sometimes called the Golden-Eyed Commander of Wishes, though she gives no orders.

She is the embodiment of Fantasy itself, inspiring others to act out her will. 
She is a question, a mystery, a wonder. She is, in short…A Muse.


And she has a direct parallel in Calliope, who similarly draws no distinction between good and evil (people forget that she read what was likely the worst of Vriska without being exposed to her growth, and seemingly wanted to be friends with her anyway)…


And who similarly has absolute power over reality, yet never gives orders, even as the entire narrative is shaped around her. Just as with the Childlike Empress, without Calliope’s existence, none of the other characters in the comic can exist either.

Everyone is entangled in and created by Lord English’s Alpha Timeline, but that web is Calliope’s as well, and she’s causally entangled in the creation of all four of the universes we follow.


And again like the Childlike Empress, Calliope bestows her Symbol on others, granting AURYN to humans–an emblem which endows in the wearer the ability to make any wish come true.

Hell, Calliope even seems not to grow up normally in Act 7 and [S] Credits. A Childlike Empress indeed. And as for her counterpart? Bastian may not be as much of a jerk as Caliborn, but the parallels between them are even more explicit:


Where The Childlike Empress is a Muse only by implication, 
Bastian is textually and demonstrably a Lord.

But let’s back up a bit.

Bastian Balthazar Bux is a little boy who steals a book named “The Neverending Story” from a bookshop and hides in his school to read it in one sitting. His sections, those taking place in the Human world, typically feature text colored Red.

However, around the halfway point of The Neverending Story, he realizes that the story is not only aware of him, but calling out to him. And he eventually finds himself pulled into the realm of Fantastica.

Bastian is a human, you see, and only humans can create stories–the inhabitants of Fantastica themselves cannot. And once the Childlike Empress is reborn with a new name, Fantastica must be reborn as well. So The Childlike Empress meets Bastian in the void between the two realms of Fantastica, and gives him the amulet AURYN, the symbol of her power.

And so, she entrusts him with a quest:
To fulfill his wishes in Fantastica, and re-create the realm of Fantasy as he goes.


Incidentally, receiving AURYN also changes Bastian’s race. Bastian is explicitly white, but upon arriving in Fantastica transforms into “a young prince from the Orient”. I’m not sure why that even happens, to be honest? Let’s note that this book is from, like, 1979 and definitely not perfect.

Anyway, I only mention it because this lends some credence to my assertion that Trickster Mode’s whiteness is not at all tied to the “actual race” of the kids– since whatever that race is, changing it would be within AURYN’s power.


To be honest, I should’ve noted that was explicit earlier, since Homestuck all but explicitly states that Tricksterfied Cherubs would look like Lil Cal, which definitely entails a primary skin color swap. And there, as with Humans, the transformation always renders the subject Caucasian-looking.

Now, where were we?


Ah, right. So, the first thing you might notice is that Bastian’s ascent to Lordship also coincides with him leaving the World of Men and entering the World of Fantasy/Ideas.


Which strikes his first echo with Caliborn. Both characters’ entries into power are marked by changing their text color to Green–the color of their respective Muse figures. And like Calliope dies for Caliborn to Enter, The Childlike Empress disappears from Fantastica as soon as Bastian becomes it’s Lord.

Bastian spends most of his adventure in the realm seeking to meet her once more, on some level–just as Lord English spends an eternity in the Void, trying to find and destroy the Calliopes.


And during his search, Bastian also accrues subjects and followers who carry out his will. Bastian is adored for his ability to create stories–which instantly become Real– across Fantastica. With The Childlike Empress’ AURYN around his neck, nothing can resist his will. Bastian becomes, for all intents and purposes, a God.

Although he loses his humanity little by little with every wish he makes. 
The memory of being weak, the memory of being ugly, the memory of being scared– as Bastian travels, he grows more self-satisfied and arrogant, desiring the adoration of others without true regard for their feelings and hearts.


Until in the end, he’s exploiting those he calls friends through sheer force of will.At this point, Bastian seeks to replace The Childlike Empress entirely, attempting to become the Childlike Emperor–just as Lord English seeks to emulate Calliope through a multitude of stylistic choices in his personal aesthetic.

I think banditAffiliate puts it well in this forum post:

“Doc Scratch was born to serve as Lord English’s other half, replacing the role Calliope served when the two shared one body. From Caliborn’s warped perspective, the two share many similarities. They’re both wordy, intelligent, and (as Caliborn saw her) quite smug. He scrapbooks with a ~ATH book like she did, and carries her weapon.

In addition to being a pastiche of his sister, Scratch is also a symbol of his other weakness, the cue ball. Both are heralded to be the key to his defeat, after all. He does double duty then by killing Scratch, hatching out of his body and growing more powerful (by assimilating Scratch’s first guardian powers), “predominating” over him and asserting his dominance over both his vulnerabilities once again.”

And Bastian, well…



Sound familiar at all?

By the end, Bastian is at risk of becoming what is essentially a Yaldabaoth–an arrogant God with full dominion over his material reality, but blind to the world of ideas outside of him.

Luckily, Bastian escapes this fate, and goes on to live a happy life, becoming a world-renowed storyteller. His path is not the path of the Lord forever. But that is another story, and shall be told another time.

There’s one last thing to note about AURYN, because it appears in two places in Homestuck. There’s the Lollipop, yes–and by linking AURYN to the Cherubs, we learn a great deal about both Muse and Lord, Calliope and Caliborn.

But AURYN’s impact is a bit more far-reaching than just them.


The emblem is also depicted during the mating ritual of Cherubs, remember? And it’s important to view this image in context, because as Aranea tells us…


Mating Cherubs tap into the forces of power presiding over all that is eternal. Cherubs are linked to the primordial forces of reality by their nature. The source of Cherub’s powers is their intrinsic connection to the flow and nature of reality.

Which suggests that the principle that AURYN is inscribed with, the principle that guides the power of its magic, is also the fundamental principle of Homestuck’s universe. Cherubs are simply beings with a unique ability to tap directly into it. And that principle is…

“Do As You Will.”

Nothing in Homestuck’s reality happens except by the Will of someone living inside it. Individual will is the backbone of all events and objects, all circumstances and beings, all people and universes in Homestuck. In Homestuck, everybody always gets what they want–one way or another.

That is what AURYN– placed here, at the center of the forces of creation and destruction– suggests. A good example of this is Lord English’s creation, where Caliborn and Gamzee’s wills to become Lord English meet Arquis’ desire to have a heroic moment of unfathomable impact onto reality:


Thus resulting in a scenario that fulfills all of their desires, and results in the creation of Lord English and Doc Scratch:


I’m not going to list a bunch of other examples because this kind of stuff is literally always what happens in Homestuck. The only thing that trumps a person’s desires in Homestuck is the desires of another willing to undermine or exploit the former.

And that kind of authoritarian behavior is the closest thing to “Sin” Homestuck’s setting has. It always comes with consequences. This is also why Karma exists in Homestuck’s causality, as noted by Latula. This is what the cycle of revenge was about.

Not even killing someone can truly erase the impact of their will on reality in Homestuck’s universe, and usurping or denying others their wills always comes with a whiplash effect back on yourself. So what does that mean for Lord English, who has so thoroughly usurped and denied the wills of every other member of the cast?


Well that… is another story, and shall be told another time.

Next time, we’ll talk about the Mother franchise’s two later installments:
Mother 3, and Earthbound. There’s much to discuss. Perhaps we’ll even find an echo of Lord English’s karmic punishment there?

Ah well. That’s all for now.

I hope you’ll check in next time.


[Master Post]

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Keep rising.


Originally published at revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com.

Counterpoint to your active/passive mage/seer argument. I see seers as active because they seek out the knowledge themselves. Mages have the knowledge happen to them. Sollux doesn’t choose to gain that knowledge, he gains it passively (ie without specific intent to) through his experiences and situations. Seers seek the knowledge they want. Thoughts?

If the classes are specifically about knowledge and gaining knowledge then the important part is HOW they gain the knowledge, not what they do with it. In my opinion, at the very least

The issue is that the classes are flexible enough that it seems to me they both do it both ways. Sollux doesn’t choose to have visions of death, sure, but he does willingly learn (and prides himself on) skills as a hacker. Meulin DEFINITELY seeks out information linked to romance and emotions in the dreambubbles, and information about the Sufferer in Alternia.

More tellingly, though, there’s definitely times when the Seers gain information without seeking it out, too. Big examples include Rose having a bunch of memories dumped on her when Dream Rose merges with her from the Davesprite timeline, and Terezi’s [S] Remem8er moment, which she didn’t really seem to be in direct control of.

So yeah, it seems to me both classes engage with their Aspect both passively and actively at times. I do think what they do with it is just as important as how they get their information, too–it’s a mix of both things, as well as the way players relate to others in general. I don’t think there’s a cut and dry way to single out a particular factor as More Important, which means the most important thing in my opinion is habits over the player’s whole narrative, and who directly tends to benefit from the Player’s actions–the player themselves, or others around them?

So yeah, there’s no hard rules in this stuff I don’t think. Just a lot of predilections and average tendencies, if that makes any sense. 

(1/3)Let me start by saying that I absolutely love your essays on the classpect system, after reading them I felt I was seeing Homestuck in an entirely new light. In fact, it’s because of this that I wanted to run an idea I’ve had about a certain classpect by you. That classpect being Seer of Blood. For the longest time, I considered just how this particular combination would actually work.

(2/3)We know that the Seer class experiences visions of the future through the vector of their aspect(or perhaps guided by their aspect), and this is clearly demonstrated by Terezi seeing the future as the myriads of choices the players can make while Rose seems to be capable of seeing the “true” path or the most fortunate path. So how could the Blood aspect, or rather bonds, be used to see the future?

(3/3)I thought about what a bond really was, and realized that a bond is simply the accumulation of shared memories and experiences between individuals, in other words a shared past. Then I remembered Signless, the visions that prompted him to start the revolution were of Beforus, of the past. I think that rather than being a pre-cog like other Seers, a Seer of Blood is actually a post-cog who uses their visions to empathize with their players and unite them.

1) Thank you so much! I’m really glad you liked them, and I hope we go on to learn a lot more about the system together 😀 I’m sure I’m wrong about some stuff and I’m sure there’s more to learn–it’s part of why I’m so excited for Hiveswap!

2) Yeah, I’d say I more or less agree! The only point I’d differ on is that I don’t think Terezi and Rose are specifically Pre-Cogs, and I don’t think a Seer of Blood is necessarily a Post-Cog, though the Sufferer certainly experiences his powers that way. I’d say all types of Seers could likely develop both properties.

I say this because time simply isn’t linear in Homestuck at all. Hypothetically, if none of the seers had any limits on their power, then for the Sufferer remembering past bonds would inevitably lead him from Beforus to LE, and from LE to the Alpha kids, from the Alpha kids to the Betas, and back around–though obviously, as his focus is Blood, he seems to cap out with the Beforans.

But even that’s more complicated, because the Sufferer isn’t technically remembering the past, but rather an alternate timeline/universe entirely, isn’t he? We saw it with the kids: The beta kid and alpha kid timelines are actually mostly concurrent to one another, despite the fact that the Betas created the Alpha’s timeline.
Jake and Jade grow up loosely in tandem.

So whether they’re inclined to remember moments related to the future or to the past, what it seems to me all Seers are mostly able to do is see sideways–into other universes, other timelines. That makes the concept of pre- or post- cognition tricky, because different universes’ temporal envelopes are wholly irrelevant to one another’s.

Terezi distributes some pretty remarkable recollection of her own timeline and the results of changing it at various points, which seems technically post-cog? Though again we fall into that timeline ambiguity. And while it’s not in canon exactly, it seems easy for me to imagine pre-cog showing up for a Seer of Blood–seeing someone and instantly knowing you’ll be friends or lovers, for example? That kind of thing.

anyway none of this is to say you’re wrong at all. It’s definitely correct that the Sufferer has a heavy disposition towards elements of reality that, through various vague and complex mechanics, read as “Past” events from his perspective. I just find the Time mechanics in Homestuck irresistible to think about because they’re so fucking weird x3.

I also just don’t want to imply that anything about my view of the Classpects implies any Class ever has to “just” be X or Y, you know? I don’t even think the archetypes I claim the story puts forth for the class pairs work that way, which is something I’ve been thinking about and needing to clarify for a long time because I’m worried I haven’t been clear enough about it. So let’s get into this tangent for a minute, if you’ll indulge me. 

Maid/Sylphs as Fairies, for example. I do think it’s definitely true those classes are coded that way in the story of Homestuck, and that they flesh out our understanding of what their key verb means, and so what they can do/how they think and process reality. 

Now, does that mean all True Maid/Sylph OCs, in my view, should parse themselves in terms of fairies? No, I don’t think so. I think Homestuck uses the symbol logic of fairies to clue the reader in, but there are myriad ways you could use mythology–or simply narrative– to get to the concept of a Player creating their Aspect or being made of it or both. 

It would be just as evocative and powerful, in my view, to base a “Maker” informed by the mythological idea of Creator Goddesses, or even a specific creator goddess. You could go with Summon Spirits from JRPGs, who embody many of the same tropes of elementals while being a bit distanced from the idea of fairy-dom. 

You could get more specific. It would be pretty easy to imagine a Fairy class Hope player who literally becomes or already is an Angel–they’re Made of Faith, after all.

The classpects are hyperflexible, and I like the Unifying Myth concept because it gives us handy ways to interpret any individual member of a given classpect to specificity. Or, of course, you can use no unifying myth or broad historical archetype at all, or make up your own consistent worldbuilding for whatever you’re thinking of making.

To personalize and flesh out the character by drawing on archetypes and mythology outside of the base Classpect system in order to give resonance and meaning to the classpect that is relevant to that specific character, the way furries work for Jade or Trolls for Callie or Rainbow Drinkers for Kanaya or so on.

So I definitely think The Sufferer reads strongly as a Post-Cog. I’m way more hesitant to allow myself to say a phrase like “Seer of Blood is post-cog”, though, because I’m unnervingly aware people might be starting to give a shit what I have to say? And I absolutely never, ever want to be limiting.

A Seer of Blood can and will be anything. The only limit is what kind of story you want to tell with one, and how much thought and nuance to want to put into the telling of it. Homestuck gives you a lot of tools to build the same kind of compelling nuance it does itself in your own storytelling, that’s all.

Sorry if I’m rambling! I wasn’t expecting to come out with this right now, and I’m sure there are more elegant and coherent ways of saying it, but I really felt like I needed to get this out there. Thanks for giving me the chance and sorry for the wall of text!

I’m still going to respond to the Hope/Rage speculation! But in the meantime, wanna know what pisses me off about classpect? /u/rachelpumpkin on reddit said ages ago that “This was actually two years ago when Andrew put together an info thing for himself on GT aspects.” There is an actual canon Hussie-created info compilation about the aspects in existence, yet we’re down here arguing over the crumbs and hints he deigns to give us ლಠ益ಠ)ლ

I like the crumbs and hints approach, personally! Partly because understanding Homestuck’s referential/symbol language is crucial to understanding it’s broader themes anyway, and partly because…I’m a Soulsborne addict and this type of storytelling has natural appeal to me so I’m not really an objective judge xD 

I would be really happy to get more crumbs though. Given my model, I’m really interested in knowing if Xefros’ relationship to Butlers implies any relationship to Knights or Pages, either because he is one or because it’s a case of roleplay. If neither’s the case, I might have to reconsider everything, which is always exciting. 

God I want Hiveswap. I’m so excited all the time ;w;

if you consider void, in the broadest sense, to be nothingness, that nothingness isn’t inherently physical and tangible, it doesn’t have to be. If apathy doesn’t fall into hope or rage, it could fall under void’s domain because it is an inherent lack of something, in this case caring. Maybe void is just defined by absense.

Makes sense to me, yeah. Which I guess brings us back around to Void contrasting everyone which…rip. I promise I’m not trying to be obtuse and cyclical I just…am continually reassessing and changing my mind about this stuff, it’s so fascinating and cool though im glad people are sending me asks and talking about it xD

well with that logic, everything could be defined by a lack of void, but I don’t really think thats what we’re supposed to get from it. Thee’s more to it than that, of course. And the reason the aspects tangle more than that is because every aspect is intrinsically related to every aspect in some way. For example, time and doom both deal with death, light and mind both deal with knowledge. that overlap creates situations where multiple aspects work together to create all the nuances of a concept

catchaloststar:

Counterpoint for the Hope/Rage part, though: lack of Hope is hopelessness, not anger. And lack of Rage is apathy, not hope. There’s a pretty clear destruction of Rage early in Act 5 when Eridan is talking to Gamzee. Several things are happening in that conversation, but the most obvious is Eridan’s sudden turnaround on Faygo. He goes from

CA: i dont havve a fuckin faygo you stupid fuck wwhy wwould i keep that disgusting shit on hand

To

What.

It’s just soda. Not great, but not that bad either. What’s the big deal?

We all need to settle down here.

To

FCA: i mean

FCA: its not evven that bad

FCA: its just soda but wwhatevver this isnt the point

If the destruction of Rage was equivalent to the creation of Hope, then that scene could have been presented in a way to make that connection more obvious – convincing Eridan that Faygo might actually taste good, for example. But (aside from Gamzee’s prattering on about miracles) that conversation has nothing to do with Hope. Eridan isn’t given any hope that he might be able to talk to Karkat later (Gamzee clearly isn’t willing to interrupt Jack Noir), nor that Feferi might get back together with him (he resigns himself to the fact that Feferi cares more about Sollux than himself at the moment and that she’s right in doing so). And Eridan walks away from that conversation with neither positive nor negative opinions of Faygo.

Overall, Eridan does not sound like he gained any Hope from the destruction of his Rage.

TC: ArE YoU SuRe i cAn’t hElP A bRoThEr Up iNtO HiS MoThErFuCkIn cHiLl?

CA: i dont knoww

CA: it probably doesnt matter

CA: my feelins seem petty and meaninless noww

CA: she had better things to wworry about than my ovverwwrought bullshit

CA: like the dead guy wwho savved her

CA: so forget it thanks anywway

You could definitely argue that Hope and Rage, as positive and negative emotions respectively, are mutually exclusive. That’s reasonable. I just disagree that the absence of any one aspect defines the presence of any other aspect (except Void).

(I guess you could also argue that hopelessness is a negative emotion that falls under Rage’s domain? Or that Gamzee was really trying to create Hope by encouraging Eridan to believe in miracles, and it’s not classpect theory’s fault that Gamzee is a shitty Maid (or whatever) of Hope? I don’t agree with those, but I think they’d be interesting arguments to make.)

Oh yeah, that’s a pretty good point. Gotta say I’m inclined to say you’ve swayed me on this one–what would you say the destruction of an Aspect brings about, then? Equilibrium or total balance or Void in this case, as well? This is gonna keep me up tonight and i have a flight tomorrow rip me

#i guess i also interpret rage more literally #as anger and fervor and such#not so broadly as to include shame sadness etc #jake crying in a dersite prison isn’t rage

In the interest of clarifying my thoughts on Rage though, I think this lil bit dovetails nicely with this: 

revolutionaryduelist:

i think that escaped my inital point somewhat but it’s far more interesting territory to discuss just how exactly every aspect relates to all the others, more than just its opposite

I agree completely, yeah. I figured Time and Space were standouts re: Void just because they describe physical dimensions, if that makes sense? Like. Destroying Space doesn’t really create Time, and in the Furthest Ring the absence of one means the other is also non-existent. 

But if someone’s Hope is destroyed, it doesn’t typically result in “nothingness”–it results in negative emotions. Either fear, despair, sorrow, or Rage, or so on. All of that stuff is under Rage’s purview, and so it makes sense for me to say the absence of Hope is Rage to a degree, and vice versa. 

Do you see what I mean by Time and Space not necessarily having that relationship? It seems different in a subtle way. 

I guess you could also argue that hopelessness is a negative emotion that falls under Rage’s domain?

In that I would. When I consider the Aspects I always err towards the broadest interpretation possible. No other approach makes sense to me, because the Aspects by definition describe everything that reality could possibly be.

If we don’t ascribe negative emotions to Rage, then what Aspect claims them?

I don’t think Jake crying in a cell is Jake like, inverting into a Rage player or w.e, but I do think it’s telling that the things Jake strives hardest to avoid are all Rage things–the possibility of letting down his friends, or hurting someone’s feelings, or having people be mad at him, etc. 

If you want a unifying thread for all those negative emotions, I would say that negative emotions tend to center us in the raw, definite mundanity of our own suffering, and have us stop considering alternate possibilities or ideas.

In other words, Rage is fundamentally linked to the mundane and the physical, and with the emotions that bring your emotional center into the physical plane as opposed to Hope, which centers itself primarily in the realm of ideas.