magpiebridge:

revolutionaryduelist:

Not in my view, but my view of the Classpects doesn’t generally have much to do with the popular view of them–I argue Pages are Active, after all.
I pair the classes the way I do because they’re consistently linked to the same verb in the comic–Make/Create for Maid/Sylph, Change for Witch/Heir.

But on top of that, it’s my view that the classes are also tied by common Archetypes or symbolic motifs. Sylphs and Maids share the Fairy motif, while Witches and Heirs share the motif of the Magician.

John is coded as a “Secret Wizard” from pretty early into his session, and the references never really stop. Jane’s got a couple of references to being a Gnome and producing sparkle dust, so on.

At this point, contesting viewpoints would have to A) Present a common verb that is linked to both classes in the text of the comic, and B) Present a uniting symbol tying the two classes together thematically (or debunk the concept of Archetypes altogether) for me to be seriously swayed.

Which isn’t impossible–Homestuck contains so much content I will never be surprised to be told I’ve missed something. But it does set the bar pretty high. 

not the original asker, but I’ve got some of both A and B to share, I suppose.

first and foremost, I would say ‘inherit’ is heavily tied to both Maids and Heirs, as an action verb.  Jane uses it the most of anyone to describe her own future. for Maids, they begin in a position of hardship and a lack of their aspect (which is tied to a social role/expectations they have ‘inherited’), while for Heirs, they begin in a position of relative ease and abundance of their aspect (also tied to a role they have ‘inherited’). Maids seek to overcome the difficult expectations and hardships they have inherited by breaking away from the will of others and taking agency for themselves.  Heirs, ideally, should overcome their own lack of awareness about their inherited position and take agency on behalf of others.  I know you don’t subscribe to inversion theory, but I think this also ties into the Prince (as inversion of Heir) and Bard (as inversion of Maid) classes.  the Princes we see both ‘inherit’ a lot of cool and dangerous shit from their progenitors that they use in sometimes questionable ways to enforce their will on reality, but their reality is a relatively difficult/uncomfortable position for them.  the Bard that we actually get glimpses of ‘inherits’ a privileged social position and a lot of dangerous expectations but a dearth of actual benefit or resources, and would have to overcome that to stop being a pawn of those expectations and of the people who hold power over him.

we also see the term ‘create’ used more for John, an Heir, than anyone else, even the Maids. the concept of ‘supply’ is connected as well–Heirs are supplied with their aspect, while Maids tend to supply themselves. as said by Rose: “I presume an Heir would be supplied with what’s needed for his maturation, assuming he’s looking for it.“ 

in terms of Witches and Sylphs, I think the concept of order is a good fit for them.  for an action verb, maybe ‘change’? this ties into both the chaotic tendency of Witches to break down order and cause changes in a “destructive” or unexpected way, and the opposing tendency of Sylphs to repair order and cause changes in a “healing” way.  we already have canon support for Sylphs and Witches being linked–Kanaya spells it out explicitly. A Sylph is "sort of like a Witch, but more magical”. another word that’s arguable is ‘manipulate’, though I’m somewhat hesitant simply because it’s used so frequently.  A lot of people want to peg Sylphs as the counterpart of Maids, but Sylphs do not create, they do not supply–they fix and repair and heal what is already present, which is not the same thing at all.

furthermore, we know from word of Hussie that the most active class is ‘female’,
while the two most passive classes are ‘male’ (discounting Muse and
Lord), which means either Maid and Heir are at the top, or Witch and Heir are. but Witch was explicitly said by Hussie to be “one of the most active”, but not THE most active, which would be a simpler distinction to make, if it were the case.  third-most active out of twelve is still heavily active-leaning.

in addition, I think it enables the simplification of the classes into a neat and ordered arrangement from most to least active/passive and combines all 12 in 3 groups of 4 with similar concepts. 

first, the most and second-most active and passive (respectively).
all four of these are linked to courts, and both rulers and servants within them.

Maid —— Heir
Prince —- Bard

next, the middle ground grouping.
all four of these are linked to the concept of magic, and both direct and indirect usage of it:

Witch —– Sylph
Mage —– Seer

finally, the least two active/passive classes.
all four of these are sort of the ‘ordinary person’ roles, but roles
found outside the protected bubble of the castle and deep into the grit
of real life:

Thief —— Rogue
Knight —- Page

admittedly a few of my arguments for Knight being the active counterpart of the passive Page nod at the example of inversion in action that we see when Vriska practically cosplays a Page of Void, and the flighty, apathetic, unsatisfied Karkat we see presenting as a Rogue of Breath, but there’s also the matter of the word ‘exploit’ being explicitly linked to active classes by Calliope (”active classes exploit their aspect to benefit themselves“) and exploit being linked in-text to Dave the Knight (repeatedly), Doc Scratch (who has no ‘official’ class or aspect), and HIC the Thief (again repeatedly).  the passive counterpart, ‘allow’ (passive classes “allow their aspect to benefit others”, also by Calliope) is linked to Seer Terezi, Muse Calliope herself, the Black Queen, Aradia (a Maid, but when she is both dead and acting very much in an inverse or ‘ghosting’ if you prefer, Bard-like way), and Thief Vriska surprisingly (but when Doc Scratch is narrating Seer Terezi’s perception of her). 

I accept that the official word says inversion isn’t a thing, but I also counter that if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and calling it a duck enables people to make informed guesses about how it’s going to behave next, it’s simpler to call it a duck than to create an entire layer of rationalization about how it’s actually a rabbit playing dress-up in flippers.

I also suspect that due to how close they are to the center-point, all of that last group of four classes tend to be somewhat flexible and/or confused about how active or passive they are the most satisfied and successful being.  with both Knights Karkat and Dave and Thieves Vriska and Meenah, they start their stories convinced that they are acting in everyone else’s best interests, always, but they’re both actually not very good at it, at all. they all seem much happier and healthier if and when they are given the right environment to focus on actually understanding themselves, their own needs, and their relationship to their aspects–in ways that don’t require destroying the agency of everyone around them.  some are more successful at this than others.  conversely, both Pages Tavros and Jake and Rogues Roxy and Rufioh spend a lot of time pretending very hard to be self-focused, confident, in-control, and aggressive in ways that maybe are just as much a false front, and when that pressure frees up, they’re far more able to use their innate and instinctive wellspring of their aspect or ability to redirect it to benefit everyone around them, freely (in Rufioh’s case, as his Alternian self who reached that point, rather than his stagnating dream-bubble self).

I’ve explained how I see the Exploit/Allow distinction previously, and I don’t think it’s impossible for a traditionally Passive class to do a lot of exploiting, or vice versa.

You mention a lot of inversion examples, too. I can understand your mindset, but…all I can really say is they don’t look like ducks to me. Any example of inversion theory I’ve ever seen has been better explained by roleplay (Aradia’s actually referred to as a witch *in the text*, and reads far more like one than like a Bard imo.), or as nothing at all (I’ve yet to read an interpretation of (Vriska) as a Page that isn’t a million times weaker than reading her as a Thief.)

I also disagree with the reading of Knights presented. I don’t think Dave and Karkat ever really stop serving/focusing on others. Pre-Retcon, Dave’s neurotic and stressed about Dirk for the entire meteor ride, ditto Karkat about Terezi.

Post-Retcon, they’re as focused on each other as they are on themselves, to the point that Karkat’s literal last words, delivered at what Karkat views as the climax of his personal story, are about how Dave is what he’s thinking about.

Seems to me their improvement has a lot more to do with being honest about their desires for validation and closeness from others–and having healthy outlets for those desires in each other– than about disattaching from others entirely.
Their growths mirror Rose a lot more than Vriska–starting off with self-images that are much more Active than their true natures, and chilling out a lot more as they get older.

Now, as for the verb/Class stuff. I have three big issues here:

1) You mention Jane is associated with the verb “inherit”, which I don’t dispute. But my view is that most of Jane’s arc is about her pretty intense roleplaying as an Heir, through her status as Crockercorp’s Heiress. So I don’t see much reason to connect the “inherit” verb to Maids at all.

2) It doesn’t make a ton of sense to me to connect Witches and Sylphs solely in terms of a shared focus on Magic, because Heirs and Maids are also explicitly connected to magic.

Again, John is referred to as a wizard for pretty much his entire narrative. The cult devoted to him is that of the Secret Wizard, even.

There’s other stuff I could say, but I feel like it’d just be repackaging my writing on Fairies, and if you don’t feel compelled by that then you don’t feel compelled by it.

My only particular point there is that I deeply disagree that Sylphs don’t Make/Create. Kanaya making Eridan his wand or making/increasing Space between all parties when fighting Eridan, Vriska trying to Make Tavros stronger or Create Bec Noir, Aranea literally Making Jake brighter. Sylphs do plenty of creating, in my view.