Tag: Dammek

I know you’ve speculated on the Hiveswap kids classpects previously but I’d like to ask you this: What classpects would you give the four kids if you stick to the theory that their classpects are composed from the unused classes/aspects between the Betas and Alphas? Mage, Thief, Sylph and Bard and Blood, Mind, Doom and Rage respectively. (Also can you ignore the class-gender lock for this ask if you don’t do so already as it shoehorns Sylph onto Joey otherwise.) P.S. Love your theory work.

The trouble with this ask is that it completely goes against my methodology.
I build my guesses for classpects very directly from what I believe are deliberate cues built into the text-Archetype associations, key verb usage, etc. I’m speculating, sure, but I’m not doing so based on broad themes.

Xefros and Dammek are explicitly Rage and Blood respectively, we know this. That leaves Doom and Mind for Jude and Joey. It seems to me Jude has strong Doom imagery, which could be roleplay, so he might in truth be a Mind player.
But Joey’s imagery is split between Light and Life, so there’s no Doom or Mind for me to work with there atm.

It’s always possible the stuff I’m picking up on is wrong, or a red herring. But as my view of the text stands right now, I just don’t see how it breaks down this way. And I don’t particularly feel its necessary, given that we’re getting classpects with every single troll call troll.

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Tetrarch Dammek is already one of Hiveswap’s most controversial characters, and he hasn’t even said a word yet. Lets see what we can learn about him using Classpects as a lens, and in the process explore how, and why, Alternia became the hellworld Joey comes to know.

I know I’ve been rather soft on him here, but let’s be clear: Dammek still really sucks for Xefros. Here’s hoping Xefros will learn to stand up for himself and Dammek will learn to treat his friends better during this adventure!

Today’s question: Do you think trolls who commit cruel deeds like Dammek, Trizza, Ardata and Zebruh are completely damned, even if they could never freely choose to be better?

Find the music on Bandcamp!:

https://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/… by Clark “Plazmataz” Powell, HS vol.8 https://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/… by Robert J! Lake, HS vol.8 https://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/… by Tyler Dever, HS vol.9 https://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/… by Thomas Ferkol, HS vol.9

In response to your post about Xefros and rping: It’s been a while since I played Hiveswap, but when I was going through it, he seemed interested in being a butler and learning all he could about it, only because that was what was expected of him. He was/is fully accepting of one day having to serve others, whether or not he likes it, while his true interest seems to be in Arena Stickball. He also seemed to have an interest in music, but that may have been Dammek’s influence.

“Resigned to the fact that there’s no hope and all thats left in his life is exploitative labor until death” is not the same as “genuinely interested”.

He’s trying to learn about being a butler because the alternative is being murdered even faster. There is no consent from Xefros in this situation, he’s merely complying with that Alternia demands of him on pain of death. It matters that Xefros doesn’t like it, and it matters that not wanting to do it but being forced to leaves him feeling drained and miserable. 

That’s why I view the role of the Knight-a mechanical metaphor for his role as a Butler-as a corrupting influence that will likely be discarded as Xefros finds his true self. I 100% guarantee you there’s no scenario where Hiveswap will suggest that Xefros lying down and embracing the role of Alternian butler is a good thing.

The music link was initially Dammek’s idea, yes, but in contrast to the Butler motif it is actually possible for Xefros to choose to embrace it in a healthier way, now that he’s free. So it might turn out to be an interest he develops on his own terms together with Joey–the wish granting implications of the cherub portal suggest that performance is in Joey’s future, after all.

My take on Dammek is Prince of Blood, personally; he’s looking to destroy the status quo as it is, and even kill another hero of blood. However, he’s kinda bleeding (heh) over into himself; he’s destroying his own relationships with what he believes are more important commitments (IE leading the rebellion; which is important, but not to the point where he should treat his Moirail as he does) However, Theif does make a lot of sense too! He has been taking Xefros’ stuff for a while

I can totally see that, and still think its a real possibility!

What tips the scales for me is the Archetypal background I typically associate with each Class. Prince is a Royalty class, which implies some kind of high/noble birth or status, and an internalized sense of superiority over others that the Royal must overcome to take control of his ego, and so his destructive power.

The Makaras and Amporas are the highest blooded members of the hemospectrum short of the Fuschias, and both Meenah and Feferi keep themselves rather seperate from the idea of actually being better than others due to their class–both of them renounce the title of Heiress and abandon the throne, one way or another.

The AR considers himself “above” his friends because he is a post-singularity AI, and often makes statements positioning himself as “above” their corporeality. So on.

Thief is an outlaw class, which implies being removed, outcast, or alienated from society and its rules. Nepeta and Vriska both consider the hemospectrum irrelevant, for example.

All Thieves and Rogues spend some amount of time either literally living outside mainstream society (Nepeta’s cave, Rufioh’s lost weaboos tribe, Meenah living on the moon) or thinking about living outside of it (Vriska’s fascination with Piracy).

The latter sounds a lot more like Dammek to me–living on the fringes of society in his own rebel network, a network that’s apparently robust enough to provide him with a shitload of loot and goods he wouldn’t otherwise have access to. Feels a lot more like Vriska’s hoard, gathered through roleplay exploits, than it does like Eridan’s born wealth and status.

Also Dammek is referenced using the “take” verb in Act 1, and I haven’t noticed him being linked to Royal verbs like “Destroy” or “Break” just yet. That said he is a noted revolutionary, and I’ve been thinking revolution/revolutionaries could be conceptually linked to the Royal classes for a while.

So I really do think its a possibility! I think it’ll become clearer as we figure out what makes Dammek tick. i want…more hiveswap

Hey. I asked this question a few days ago, but you didn’t answer, so I decided to try again. I don’t know what else to do. My question was what do you Dammek’s classpect is

my opinion is that he’s a thief of blood, probably being forced into roleplaying a Knight (by way of butlering) to some extent, and ghosting “Breath” either as a result of that stress, the influence of the Breath-coded Bronze caste, or both.

so Thief of Blood->Knight of Breath, with the latter being unhealthy behavior he’s forced into. because of that influence, he’s taken at least one notable action that comes off like a Thief of Breath and Blood, simultaneously.

That would be the theft of Xefros’ hoverboard. Dammek takes Xefros’ stuff because Xefros lets him, and Xefros lets him either because they’re moirails or because of Xefros’ feelings for him. Either way, Dammek is stealing through the strength of their relationship–stealing through Blood.

But the hoverboard itself is a distinctly Breath item. It flies, it allows for motion and freedom, it advances the plot, and the laser it emits is distinctly Breath blue. Which means Dammek is stealing Breath.

Blood is how he actually achieves the theft–fitting, since it’s his natural strength. But Breath is what he’s choosing to steal, and imo that speaks to Dammek’s likely unhealthy state of mind and skewed priorities/self-image.

That help?

Hey, I found your youtube videos on the classpects a couple of days ago and I just wanted to say that they’re very, very good. I was also wondering if you had any thoughts on Trizza’s class? Her being blood-bound certainly got a chuckle out of me, but that aside I’m having a hard time trying to fit that into my theorizing, even compared to some of the other characters with aspects that were unexpected to me, like Charun or Chahut.

I may as well throw in Dammek and the rest of these new trolls, too, since it’ll set a precedent for how I want to evaluate this class stuff as the games tell us more.
I think Roleplay’s biggest advantage is that it’s pretty falsifiable, though you gotta be careful to get access to all the potential information possible before making a decision–I’m often caught off guard by the way this stuff lines up.

Since I’m not interested in getting the fandom SUPER EXCITED for classpects or lore in general in ways that lead to disappointment with the way the story develops later on, it’s REALLY important to me that A) roleplay as an idea gets held up to scrutiny and B) that I don’t try to overreach what I can derive from the information we’re given.

So talking about my own mental process for evaluating Class, I think, can only be helpful for both. I’m gonna do this in more depth in video form soon (so much to say about Xefros), but since you’re asking here’s a rough roundup. This got long so its under the cut.

I only have guesses as to a few of the trolls’ classes, because we just have too little information on them. I was able to guess Xefros would be linked to the Serve classes, probably Knight, only because he happened to be noted as being interested in Butlers.

Even then, I wasn’t guessing his actual class. It was implied pre-release that Xefros was a butler unwillingly, so I figured he was most likely being forced into Knight roleplay. Knights being the butlers associated with serving to benefit others–in this case, the Empire, though a lot of his service ended up being directed at Dammek as well.

That was all I figured. It didn’t account for his Page nature at all, and since I wasn’t thinking about Aspects as something that could be roleplayed, I took his Time thinking at face value, though there’s plenty of references to his relationship with Rage in Act 1.

Now that said, I don’t have a clue about Trizza’s true class, honestly. There’s so many ways her character could shake out that there’s no way to tell before getting to know her more. I’m going to guess that she might well be “roleplaying” the Life aspect, if there’s any merit to the Caste Influece/Aspect roleplay idea.

If that’s the case, she’s probably being at least strongly encouraged to roleplay either a Destroyer class–if the narrative emphasis is on her adopting Alternia’s hemospectrum superiority to heart  and considering herself biologically superior by dint of aristocracy.

Or an Heiress–if she’s like Jane and has been raised to constantly perceive herself as related to her eventual inheritance of the empire.

I like this idea, because it would relate the two Crocker heiresses who are actually forced to live under the Condesce’s thumb. And because if A. Claire is Jane, then the contrast between Anna as Heiress and Trizza as Heiress would be narratively interesting.

I also think it’s the slightly likelier option, because Xefros is already referring to her as the Heiress, meaning she hasn’t abdicated/abandoned the throne like Meenah and Feferi did.

It seems to me Dammek is likely a Thief. He’s got the outlaw imagery going on, and Xefros mentions Dammek “taking his stuff.” Dammek is also forced into Butlering, just like Xefros, and being a Thief means that being put into a position of Serving for the benefit of Others is essentially counter to his very nature.

Kind of the inverse of Tavros being forced to roleplay a Rogue of Breath, in fact. It’s not a good place to be, if Tavros is any indication, so it’s no wonder Dammek is pretty fucked up.

It’s worth noting that while Dammek is demonstrably a Blood player–he’s able to steal from Xefros because of Xefros’ feelings for him, essentially, making it theft through Blood–the most notable object Dammek steals is the Hoverpad, which is a Breath item. It links to motion, flight and freedom, but also it’s laser is literally Breath blue.

So like Xefros, Dammek seems to be simultaneously manifesting his true Aspect, while also manifesting his Blood Castes’ Aspect, usually while linked with unhealthy or toxic behavior. The microphone can be interpreted as Dammek’s warped attempt to Serve Xefros Breath, for example, and theres grounds to read him as roleplaying a Knight at the time being, much like Xefros.

I treat these new trolls the same way. If there’s a suggestion of one of the archetypes in their design or text bites, I think there’s a chance they’ll be linked to the corresponding classes, either because it’s their true class or, maybe more likely, because they’re roleplaying.

I’m currently thinking there’s a chance almost every blood caste is encouraged to roleplay a particular role, so I’m keeping an eye out for that, but I’m not convinced. The strongest point of evidence would be the Olivebloods so far all qualifying as Outlaws, so I assume they’re all roughly roleplaying Thieves or Rogues.

Maxlol (god I love him) is marked by being an internet crusader (in other words, a kind of Warrior) and by a desire to serve the empire. So I think there’s a solid chance he’s a Knight, and if there’s a cultural force encouraging him to act like a Mage or Prophet, then Knight is probably even his true class?

Amisia references “making” her own Paint, which means she might have some relationship to Sylphs or Maids.

Not a class thing, but it’s worth noting that Tyzias is a Blood player and is associated with lack of sleep and, uh, maybe drinking literal blood? So I do think there’s grounds to be looking at classpect details in these little blurbs, where they appear.

That’s about all I’ve personally got right now. I’m curious about the troll call trolls, but there’s not a ton to say about each of them individually other than some idle speculation. I’ll be interested to see to what extent, if any, I’m right about any of them.

I’m not sure any of these will be the case because I’m still not 100% how much I’m full of shit about the way Roleplay seems to work, but that we’re being presented with so many trolls presents a very interesting case study.

A thought occurs regarding Xefros’s Rage alignment. Could it be possible that Dammek’s behavior(general paranoia and a desire for destruction of authority/anarchy) is a result of Xefros’s Page of Rage status? Could it be that his desire to protect Xefros is so powerful, and that he is so saturated in Rage, that it has made him unstable and destructive?

magpiebridge:

revolutionaryduelist:

Maybe to some extent. I do think Dammek is in an unhealthy state of mind, for sure. We won’t be able to say for sure where he’s involved until Hauntswitch lets us get into his head, though, I think. 

I’m really… not a fan of this idea for two reasons.  One, it’s making some really uncomfortable suggestions that someone who has been coded as a victim in a number of ways is, at heart, responsible for/complicit in the behavior and choices of the person who is mistreating them. 

Two, yet again it’s treating Rage players as automatically ‘bad’ or ‘negative’ or ‘destructive’.  Neither of these things are, I think, true or helpful assumptions, and they’re assumptions I see bandied about a lot within the fandom, in regards to both victims of assorted horrific mistreatment and Rage players, in ways that tend to try to pivot the axis around until the people making terrible choices and doing terrible things are absolved of all responsibility for their behavior. 

I think this tendency is one of the reasons I disagree so strongly with certain reads of the Page role, that imply they unknowingly (or knowingly) encourage all of this mistreatment to “benefit” themselves. 

This is an important point, that I agree with. I’m sorry if it’s seemed otherwise.
I’m happy Xefros is a Rage player precisely because it’s such a positive depiction of the Aspect in Act 1. Xefros makes Joey feel by turns confused, frustrated, and protectively furious in the span of a couple of hours, causing her to champion on his behalf. 

And I don’t think Xefros CAUSES Dammek to be overly aggressive and controlling of him. That’s ultimately Dammek’s choice, and a fuck up on his end. But I’m just not interested in this “Dammek’s mean to Xefros because he’s BAD and CRUEL and A BAD PERSON” narrative. It’s just not very interesting?

You can be interested in characters that are bad people. It’s fine. And taking the time to understand their nuances leads to a better understanding of the text, and of the character’s dynamics. 

Here’s the thing about Pages: I regard their tendency to end up in abusive relationships as one of the like…potential dangers of the Class. This isn’t to say it’s their fault, any more than it’s Maids faults that they end up conscripted to their Aspect, or other seemingly Class-related challenges.

See, Pages are simply friendly and likable, and that’s kind of their superpower. They’re incredibly good at getting people to like them in some way, and so want to protect or empower them. But they can’t really control the people that get invested in them, and what someone else thinks is best isn’t always right for you.

Part of a Pages’ arc is about coming to face their reality and, in some cases, the imposed roles and identities others enforced on them. They reach their full potential when they come to be aware and honest about their true feelings and desires, and assert themselves bravely. That’s the basic Page arc, as far as I can tell. 

So I consider them active not because they manipulate people into abusing them or w.e, but because their fundamental story is about attracting the protective and sometimes dangerous wills of others to their lives and learning how to stand up for their own. 

But this toxic behavior always seems to be rooted in a genuine care for the Page. Vriska was cruel and awful to Tavros, yes. It’s also inarguable that she perceived herself as trying to help Tavros, and that the desire to make him stronger drove her behavior to some extent. She says so herself.

Dirk was outright in LOVE with Jake, and wasn’t a FRACTION as cold feeling towards him as people commonly think. All of the actual conflict and abuse came from AR/Hal, who was in an unimaginably toxic situation himself and was p much also abusing Dirk.

And Jake DID contribute significantly to his actual romantic problems with Dirk. Jake decides to lie to Jane (Roxy had told him explicitly Jane had feelings for him TWICE before that conversation) and decides to believe her when she lies about liking him. All of this because he had already chosen Dirk. 

Despite this, and despite KNOWING that his jokes about sexuality and Dirk being a girl probably hurt Dirk’s feelings/made Dirk think he was straight early in life (which turns out to be a major part of why Dirk is so tense and uncomfortable while they’re dating), he doesn’t talk to Dirk about it, because that would require conflict or admitting he did something wrong, and Jake is kind of a coward about that stuff! 

He’s non-confrontational to a fault, so Jake deals with problems by denying they exist or, at his worst, indulging escapism and outright running away from them. It’s exactly what Grandpa did to Joey and Jude, and the same potential for toxic behavior shows up in Jake, though he learns to grow out of it through his friends.

This is a HUGE THEME in Homestuck! Pretty much EVERY character has some potential for toxic/abusive behavior, and it’s only by connecting to each other and understanding the world though friendships that they rise above those inherent personal weaknesses. 

And it doesn’t mean Jake deserved his abuse but, once again:
Dirk didn’t abuse him. So their actual relationship was troubled because of AR’s influence, AND more sensible ways they were both fucking up. This is Jake’s side.

What I’m saying is, there’s room here to both understand Dammek as someone who is toxic to Xefros and understand him as having warm and even positive feelings about Xefros. Dammek might genuinely not realize anything is wrong, because he is a Prospit dreamer and  Xefros’ whole problem is being unable to see Dammek’s treatment as a problem, let alone communicate it. (Denial is a recurring motif for Pages, btw.)

None of this is necessarily what’s going on. And even if it is, Dammek could turn out to be considerably judgmental and critical of Xefros. All of this nuance might be true and Dammek would still be an asshole. 

Because people are nuanced, and assholery and abuse are behaviors regular people might come to engage in in all sorts of ambiguous ways. And Xefros and Dammek are both shaped by a society literally designed to make them as self-destructive and hateful as possible. 

I have noooo idea how Dammek’s character actually works, or how the story is going to handle them. All I’m saying is there’s room for nuance here, and I’m interested in exploring it.

A thought occurs regarding Xefros’s Rage alignment. Could it be possible that Dammek’s behavior(general paranoia and a desire for destruction of authority/anarchy) is a result of Xefros’s Page of Rage status? Could it be that his desire to protect Xefros is so powerful, and that he is so saturated in Rage, that it has made him unstable and destructive?

Maybe to some extent. I do think Dammek is in an unhealthy state of mind, for sure. We won’t be able to say for sure where he’s involved until Hauntswitch lets us get into his head, though, I think.