bro showing up would be fuckin great because even though he is possibly brainwashed and definitely unfit for parenting he’s still my favorite guardian? he’s just so fascinatingly terrible. some things tho: dirk still has smuppets, so those aren’t on bro, those just seem like a dirk thing. Saw’s a cal thing probably yeah. but dirk also sends jake the strifebot, & yeah jake asked for someone to rumble with, but there’s like this go hard or go home thing both dirk and bro show in “training” matters

Jake didn’t just want someone to tumble with, he wanted adventures. Which is what Dirk set out to provide. I’ve written several essays on this. I don’t feel theres any evidence Dirk was as motivated by imposing training on Jake as he was by trying to give Jake what Jake LOUDLY said he wanted.

If it was about training: Why not train Jane with lil seb, too? She was in as much danger as Jake, would also have to play the game, and was WAY less prepared than Jake was to begin with. So see, Dirk as this ruthless trainer figure just doesnt add up to me at all.

Also Jake likes the brobot, it’s AR he actually had a problem with and Dirk wasn’t in charge of AR.

Also Dirk likes smuppets but smuppets aren’t….nefarious? Theres nothing problematic about smuppets as long as they’re not forced on a child along with snuff films, they’re just silly vaguely phallic puppets he likes lol. Know who else likes smuppets? Jake and Grandpa. Pa’s keeping an absolutely huge one stuffed in the basement–its in the background.

Bro has one distinguishing interest from Dirk, and it’s also the evil nefarious one: SAW. There’s little reason to ascribe it anywhere but to Caliborn.

no, i was thinking of dirk. he built brobot and everything AR did was done with dirks authorization

Ah. Sorry for putting words in your mouth, if that’s what I did–I was kind of wired yesterday and I don’t remember my exact wording too well, so I’m worried I mighta come off that way. Kinda forgot this is a view people still have, honestly.

Suffice it to say, I feel you’re incorrect. AR was explicitly not acting with Dirk’s authorization, since AR explicitly screens/blocks all of Jake’s messages to Dirk after the very first one that Dirk reads. And Dirk wasn’t even able to keep up with the circumstances leaving up to Unite Synchronize–his entire narrative is him being overwhelmed by the amount of information he has to process and unable to keep up. It doesn’t make sense to attribute Unite Synchronize to anything but AR’s design, especially since Dirk lays the events squarely on AR’s shoulders–despite being inclined to assume responsibility and self-loathing for anything he perceives as his mistakes–and AR not only doesn’t deny it, but actively takes credit for it.

As for the Brobot, Dirk certainly did build it, but that’s not really comparable to what Vriska does, and it’s questionable how much it lines up with Dammek currently. Mainly because Dirk was explicitly trying to give Jake what Jake very loudly, very boldly said he wanted, and as it turns out Jake demonstrably likes the Brobot–it’s AR he was frustrated with in canon for the most part.

I wrote several essays on this already that can be found here, so you’re free to read that and agree/disagree at your pleasure. Regadless, I consider the “Dirk was abusive/toxic to Jake (and depending on who you ask, AR)” reading little more than bad, outdated fanon.

the gay homestuck tarot discourse you’ve all been waiting for

revolutionarygays:

everyone has been talking abt the act 6 tarot project (since the homestuck tarot deck is years old) so here’s my ten cents i guess:

Keep reading

I mean I agree there’s issues w/ biases towards mlm ships for sure, and that should be accounted for, but i disagree in two places:

A) Saying Rosemary is artistically “the best” because it features themes of duality and spirituality and enlightenment. Rosemary DOES have those themes and they are wonderful and incredibly impactful, don’t get me wrong.

So does Dirkjake though. like…both boys literally light up with gay love for each other. For that matter, so do Vriska and Terezi, as both girls are able to find Light only once they find each other.

Themes of enlightenment and balance through unity are part of how Homestuck establishes relationships, and that’s true for every ship from Rosemary to Roxycallie. I don’t think it makes sense to say only Rosemary really encompasses them, though they all do it in unique ways.

And B) At dismissing Dirkjake as mediocre and not plot-relevant. Jake’s love is what leads to Caliborn’s defeat. Jake and Dirk’s relationship is a big part of Dirk’s metatextual salvation, and Jake’s sense of peace and safety. That’s plot-relevant and important shit that contributes to the story and puts their relationship front and center.

Not sure why we need to tear down mlm representation as unimportant to uplift the incredible impact and transcendence of these wlw ships. Like yeah elevating nonsense yaoi for eye candy’s sake is a problem sometimes especially at the expense of women but…Dirkjake isn’t a typical yaoi ship.

It’s an mlm ship in Homestuck which is canon, carries that weight accordingly, and says adds both to Homestuck’s philosophical themes and it’s broader narrative. That’s…important? Like that’s not just two boys thrown together at random by fans any more than davekat is.

Both of the canon ships Homestuck presents are transcendent and powerful depictions of gay love, just like Rosemary and Vrisrezi. Every canon Homestuck pairing would be a good fit for the Lovers, as far as I can tell from the criticisms I’ve seen.

Which isn’t to say that there isn’t a problem in fandom as a whole, it’s just the fundamental criticism here is inaccurate. Dirkjake is a really solid fit for that card, conceptually.

And like yeah there’s a bias towards dudes in fandom and it’s a big problem but as a gay dude I literally don’t have other m/m pairings outside of Homestuck that aren’t on some level queerbaity bullshit and these are actually well-depicted, deeply empathetic gay stories.

that are actually taken seriously in their narrative and feel honest and true to life as written! Like. That just doesn’t EXIST anywhere else even with m/m, like I’d honestly be delighted if someone pointed me to the treasure trove where all the other compellingly written dudes in love with dudes are but I haven’t found that many.

I feel Dirkjake and Davekat have earned a level of recognition on an artistic level that goes beyond Anime Dudes #1 and #2, basically. I don’t really like seeing that undervalued to prop up WlW ships, because I don’t really see the ships as being in competition, and valuing ALL of the ships in Homestuck elevates all of them by making them part of a better whole in my view?

Dunno if I’m making sense cause this is pretty personal to me. Sorry if I’m being a jerk, I genuinely think wlw and girls in general should get more fan content.
In my perfect world there’d be like 6 lovers cards depicting every main homestuck pairing.

I’m just objecting to what I view as an unnecessary diminishing of the canon that a lot of people genuinely value on a writing level the way a lot of people genuinely value Vrisrezi.

smuppetsona:

making dirkjake the lovers card in your homestuck tarot is an obvious bias

im no expert on tarot, but heres what my tarot app says about the card:

the obvious choices for the lovers based on that description are vrisrezi and rosemary

both rosemary and vrisrezi have themes of unity between them, a balance between two opposites who are really the same

sun and moon, good and evil, terezi’s scales and the ambiguity of vriska’s death being heroic or justified, rose’s destructive tendencies and kanaya’s themes around birth

they both trust their partners with their whole hearts and feel incomplete without them because of how much better they make each other

dirkjake lacks those themes. they care deeply for each other, but are out of step, they dont balance each other well at all. they break up because they are so discordant with eachother and can only reconcile when its implied they finally talk to eachother

to pick them for the lovers tells me you didnt even consider the women for whom those themes are essential to their stories

Not sure how this ended up on my dash but alright I guess I’ll comment:

I wouldn’t really contest that rosemary and vrisrezi have those themes of unity and complementary duality, they’re some of the most romantic stories put to text imo. They’re also in Davekat and Javepeta because…yeah…Hussie’s a good romance writer?

But, like…Dirkjake is too. Those elements suffuse Dirkjake in a lot of ways, that I’ve written about, extensively. You’re presuming other people have a reading of Dirkjake as cynical as yours is, and that’s just not necessarily the case. A lot of people think it stands up there with the rest of the canon Homestuck romances.

Which…it does. Because those themes are there, and if you want to debate me on those terms I’ve always been happy to discuss it. So that’s plain old not what’s happening.

Any fanwork presenting a celebration of one ship isn’t doing so at the cost of others? Nobody’s ever tried to say Dirkjake are the Canon Tarot Lovers Ship, someone just liked making a fanwork depiction of the ship they want to celebrate. I don’t really see the issue.

swamp-wizard:

revolutionaryduelist:

swamp-wizard:

from the top, in a new post cause the last one got too long. @ao3sburbanite @revolutionaryduelist

Keep reading

Alright, I’m noticing some discrepancies between what I think and what you’re pointing to so maybe its worth clearing those up.

Keep reading

womp womp

Keep reading

alright here we go sorry i took forever

Some really insightful shit about Rose and Damara vis a vis Scratch

Ok, that’s a genuine parallel I hadn’t noticed before and thanks for pointing it out to me cause that’s really cool and adds to their narrative. Good shit

It also…does nothing to counteract my point? Yes, you’re right, sometimes Homestuck’s parallelism is absolutely meaningful and important, I’m not denying that and never tried to. Other times it’s Homestuck using a series of shots because we know them and they look cool.

My point wasn’t “VISUAL PARALLELISM IS MEANINGLESS”, it was “Visual parallelism is one element that should be taken into context, and the context with Dirk and Jake’s relationship is incredibly intricate and complex.”

And speaking of visual parallelism…

(oh, and by the way – the fight we see during [s] prince of heart: rise up is the novice setting. folks tend to forget that, but roxy re-activated it beforehand, and jake confirms it again in his following pesterlog with jane.)

I keep hearing this like it’s some Devastating Argument every so often–
You realize this only undermines the idea that we should be taking the visual parallelism between this fight and Aradia/Vriska as directly symmetrical, right? On multiple levels.

1) If this is the novice setting, then it doesn’t show us the actual problem Jake says he has with the Brobot, which is it acting “Tender”. Unless the Brobot tearing out his Heart for Jake is in line with that, which…I would actually buy lmao. So the visual language of the comic is already slightly off-kilter from the language and writing setting it up.

2) Homestuck has always played fast and loose with slapstick violence in the context of fast-paced fight scenes, but it also telegraphs it pretty clearly when characters are being seriously *hurt*. When Aradia beats the shit out of Vriska, she’s drawing a shitload of blood. Jake’s fight with the Brobot comes with a bunch of funny gags and slapstick goofs.

It’s visually intense, I’ll definitely grant you that. And if you want to put it on Hussie for making it too intense then…sure? But we’re not meant to take this goofy slapstick the same way we’re meant to take the somewhat righteous revenge Aradia takes that leads to Vriska’s god tiering, and we’re not meant to take THAT the same way as a 30 year old man stomping down a 13 year old.

I’m preaching to the choir here, I know, my point is just: I really don’t think the graphic nature of the flash is as important as the visual signposting the comic uses for actual damage being done to someone. It’s easy enough to think Brobot was pulling punches through the simple fact that it doesn’t draw blood, and humans are a lot less fragile than trolls.

Which is important, because as for the context…

dirk sent jake the brobot to set jake up with dirks idea of an adventure scenario – a scenario which jake IMMEDIATELY rebuffed as soon as he learned what it entailed! and when dirk cant win him over (by arguing that it will “sharpen [his] combat skills”… Hmmm🤔🤔🤔), he changes the subject.

How on earth does Dirk’s idea of an adventure differ from any other? Adventures inherently constitute a goal which may be elusive, a dangerous journey (in this case, a controlled amount of danger), and surprises and setbacks. That’s what adventure is–they include uncertainty.

How would you have designed Dirk’s perfectly morally justifiable adventure scenario to challenge Jake with? How might an adventure be designed in a way Jake at 13, who does nothing but sit in his house scared of monsters, would be perfectly comfortable with? I seriously don’t see how Dirk could have accommodated Jake’s particular “idea” of adventure.

Because Jake’s entire thing is claiming to be down for LITERALLY ANY ADVENTURE, but he doesn’t actually do so out of fear of the monsters. My point isn’t that Dirk handled this perfectly–he didn’t–but that he wasn’t imposing some random idea onto Jake he got from nowhere. He got the idea from Jake, and what Jake continually said that he wanted.

They also typically include conflict and fighting, so yeah there’s A TRAINING ELEMENT involved here. It’s just not Dirk’s primary motivator. Dirk’s primary motivator is trying to give Jake what he thought Jake wanted…because Jake told him he wanted it, not because Dirk arbitrarily decided Jake SHOULD want it.

Jake rebuffed it immediately, yeah…but Dirk turning it off would also pose a danger to Jake’s life that Dirk would then have to contend with being responsible for, and at this point Jake has been pulling Dirk to and fro with flirting and anti-gay comments for quite a while. My point is, again, not that Dirk doesn’t fuck up–just that there’s no reason to think this is some cold, calculated manipulation Dirk is pulling off to get Jake to Accept His Methods.

It’s a gay boy disappointed that his romantic overture @ his best friend didn’t work out when he pinned a lot of hope on it, and tired of talking about it because the conversation had already been hurting his feelings quite a lot.

And again, that’s still pretty shitty! Just no more shitty than Jake’s lying and willful ignorance. And the alternative–turning the Brobot off–would be shitty and terrible too, with potentially far worse consequences than Jake being uncomfortable.

We don’t have any reason to think Dirk had control over the Brobot at this point, either–and even if he did, by the present day, AR would be able to veto him since AR is Dirk but…better at computers. And more ruthless and bitter.

Gee it’s almost like Dirk committing fundamentally innocent and well-intentioned fuck ups that nevertheless leave him and those he cares about with enormous consequences is something that happens often in his arc, and that leads to him hating himself even more than he’s already inclined to.

Not that that would make Jake’s abuse not abuse, but…

whos to say hes being honest here? the exchange you cite happens in the exact same pesterlog as where jake corners jane into a “do you like me y/n” scenario – a scene which YOU YOURSELF have characterized as jake being deliberately misleading and deceitful, because he already knows the answer!

you can be afraid of someone and still want them to protect you. its a very common abuse tactic.

Which would be important and matter if Jake literally ever once showed indication of being scared of Dirk. He doesn’t. Jake running away has everything to do with Jake wanting to avoid confrontation on all fronts for his own sake, he never once even mentions being scared of Dirk. Which brings me to…

We can say Jake is being honest here because of context and Jake’s continued actions providing how he actually feels.

At this point Jake has gotten what he wanted out of Jane–an admission of friendship and emotional unavailability–and confessed to something he was clearly and unambiguously nervous about–that he’s given serious thought to being with Dirk, which he literally worries will have Jane think he’s weird.

We can also assume Jake is being honest here because Jake goes on to be obnoxiously honest at Jane about all of Dirk’s myriad flaws for six months. And at no point during that does Jake ever mention anything whatsoever about feeling intimidated or scared of Dirk, certainly not physically.

He most complains about him talking too much and being clingy and needy and unable to relax and believe Jake actually wants to spend time with him. Basically if at any point it was established Jake actually was scared of Dirk, then yeah, I’d say there’s merit to questioning that line. There just isn’t.

I’d also say Jake being scared of the Brobot isn’t really that well-founded! Jake mostly voices frustration and impatience at having to waste his time, not discomfort at fighting the Brobot–and where there IS discomfort, it has to do with it being “Tender” and figuring out Dirk’s feelings and AR’s aggressive romantic propositioning.

Even beyond how he TALKS to people, Jake’s adventure through the island simply doesn’t have the sense of anxious tension that Dave’s wandering through his apartment does. Jake is mostly pretty blase about the whole thing, and when Brobot shows up he’s framed as happy to see it–where Dave is worked up and anxious and notably distressed and increasingly so literally from moment one.

jake concedes all of janes criticisms of the brobot, but defends it with this scrappy adventurer persona hes set up for himself that we KNOW is bullshit. “sometimes when i walk through the jungle im sweating bullets […] but its like every day is more of an adventure”. his eagerness to make excuses is startlingly reminiscent of daves defense of his bro from acts 2-3.

it’s interesting how you cut out the bit where Jake says he thinks the brobot is exciting here let me put that full quote here cause i like it:

GT: Which sometimes is annoying and sometimes when i walk through the jungle im sweating bullets wondering if its going to pounce on me outta nowhere.
GT: But theres actually something kind of exciting about that its like every day is more of an adventure.

Which matters because there is proof Jake is being honest here.
The key detail here is Jake’s language. Jake isn’t talking about his adventurer persona here, he’s talking about his own feelings. Jake is as obvious and transparent about his front as Dave or Karkat once you know what you’re looking for, it’s the difference between:

GT: I consider you to be a lovely lady of the highest caliber and i really think any gent worth his salt would be a huge bozo to let the chance to go steady with you slip through his fingers.

and

GT: I guess if it was going to go this way…
GT: I kinda pictured something different?
GT: There was stuff i wanted to say.
GT: To the real him i mean.

Jake is complicated, but he’s not any more inscrutable than Dirk. You can figure out what he actually means with some attention to detail.

jake does not like the kind of sneak-up-behind-you-and-snap-your-neck ninja bullshit dirk likes.

This stuff literally never happens in the comic. All the Brobot does is play fucking hide and seek and show itself when Jake needs to be saved from a goat monster. Dirk framed it that way–he’s not the best salesman–but we have no clue if the Brobot behaves this way ever, since it…never does. and in any case, everything I said above.

To whatever extent Jake was (understandably) put off, he grew into it. So it was a fuck up, but not one that did him serious harm–lasting or otherwise.

dirks insistence to roxy that jane will believe everything in due time, that they just have to wait (for dirk to open her up to the possibility of the fantastical truth) isnt doing anything to help.

i cant say that dirk being open and honest would have made jane instantly believe either, but his indirect puppetmaster bs (complete failure though it may be) sure as hell wasnt the right way to handle things. dirk had so much faith in his (totally nonexistent) ability to manipulate people into becoming their best selves that he completely ignored the healthiest and most obvious solution of “just be open with your emotions numbnuts”.

I don’t think Dirk tries to manipulate Jane into believing stuff at all, and I don’t think there’s any reason to think so. He literally tells Jake to do whatever he wants re: Jane, he just thinks she’ll think she’ll being fucked with. Which doesn’t exactly jive with this idea of Dirk as being this obsessive control freak:

TT: Jane is…
TT: No. I haven’t.
TT: I’ve dropped some hints and tested her willingness to believe something like this.
TT: It’s just not going to fly. It’s way too much drop on somebody all at once if they aren’t receptive.
GT: Hmm. True but it seems a shame to keep her out of the loop.
TT: Well, tell her whatever you want. She’ll likely think she’s being fucked with.
TT: Personally, I wouldn’t bother trying too hard to convince her. There’s no point in alienating her.
TT: Some day she’ll be ready to believe things.

Dirk doesn’t tell her stuff because he doesn’t want to alienate her. And even then, he uh…he does. He’s plenty open with his emotions. And he’s sweet about it, too:

TT: Jane, soon you’ll believe what I’ve told you.
TT: You’ll believe it all.
TT: It’s just a shame that believing will take something so coarse as seeing, for a girl as sharp as you.
TT: Critical thought can lead one to accept the unlikely, just as much as dismiss the impossible.

Dirk isn’t relying on manipulating Jane to get her to believe stuff. He’s relying on the simple fact that eventually Jane is going to have to face the facts of all their lives anyway, because she’ll have to play Sburb. He correctly deduces the core of Jane’s identity–just as he deduces Jake is smarter than he wants people to think he is–and picks up on the fact that Jane will believe things once she directly experiences them.

This is fundamentally accurate, since waking up on Skaia is when Jane starts immediately coming around. Even so, he literally goes out of his way to tell Jane he thinks she’s smart, and that she’ll believe the things he’s been telling her.

Dirk is pretty up front about lavishing his friends with praise and pointing out what he sees as things they do that are problems, but he doesn’t really do much about the latter. Where Dirk bottles shit up is concerning any way that their problems might directly hurt him, because Dirk is too busy hating himself to even consider begrudging any of his friends any actions they take.

if dirk wants jane to be less skeptical and more trusting, and dirk wouldnt be pleased to hear jane say she likes the auto-responder, isnt the natural conclusion to reach that dirk lets jane engage with the auto-responder under the pretense that its him, and is upset that she can tell the difference?

Given everything I pointed out above?

Literally no, since his primary issue with AR is always, consistently, that he hates Hal conflating their personalities. A conclusion that puts Dirk randomly at odds with his primary character dynamic thrust with AR in order to make him more manipulative is not the natural conclusion–it’s a possible one, but you’d have to prove it to me.

I might have missed one or two points but I think this covers the main stuff. I’ll take another look tomorrow and see if I have anything to add but i gotta get to bedz

swamp-wizard:

from the top, in a new post cause the last one got too long. @ao3sburbanite @revolutionaryduelist

Keep reading

Alright, I’m noticing some discrepancies between what I think and what you’re pointing to so maybe its worth clearing those up.

which is why i described dirk as a “prime contributing factor”. it wasnt solely his fault. but hes also not blameless, which, again, is what im getting at here.

Yeah but of course Dirk is a contributing factor, he’s one of four kids and they’re all pretty much inextricably contributing. I don’t know anyone who thinks Dirk is blameless–I just know people who think he got as much as he gave, and that the bad he gave is way overstated in proportion to the other Alphas.

an approach which dirk (at the beginning of his arc, as i specified in the op) explicitly agrees with, in his very first pesterlog!

It’s more complicated than that, and really I don’t know why you would assume what any characters say early on is the definitive statement on the feelings of any Homestuck character. Like. This is Homestuck. Come on.

Dirk tells JANE he agrees with that approach, rattles off a number of other reasons, and then says it’d be fucked up to stop Hal and that he owed it to Hal to let the program run as long as possible.

You could conceivably imagine Dirk growing out of the other shitty reasons he gave, but if he did, he would still feel obligated to let Hal have his way also. That’s a problem without an easy moral solution Dirk has access to, which is what he struggles with right up until he almost kills Hal.

Also by this point in the narrative Jane has also already talked to Jake, who explicitly points out that Dirk doesn’t like Hal, and wouldn’t like that Jane loves him.

and we can infer, based on what we know “jake should be more like jane” entails, that jane is/has been on the receiving end of the auto-responders mind games.

We can’t infer any such thing, because Dirk is clearly and demonstrably not in control of Hal in the first place. That’s the entire point of Hal. Even if he was, how would Hal messing with Jane’s head make her LESS skeptical? That doesn’t make any sense?

This besides the fact that Dirk is voicing an observation that he doesn’t act upon at all, he’s also voicing an observation that is…literally correct.

Jane’s ignorance and skepticism does great emotional damage to Roxy, who literally goes on at length about it directly to Dirk. Jake’s willful ignorance (which he frames around believing whatever is convenient to him) does enormous harm to both Jane AND PERSONALLY TO DIRK, including Jake making comments that make Dirk feel isolated and potentially judged for being GAY, not to mention romantically unreciprocated.

That’s serious shit to do to someone even if you’re only doing it because you’re a clueless 13 year old, and it shouldn’t be disregarded as part of Dirk’s character especially since…we have evidence that stuff bothered him.

you can chalk up the fact that we never see jane being played by the ar to bad writing (hussie admitted in one of his tumblr q&as that he struggles in writing jane, although those are now offline), or a deliberate choice – because jane says she likes the ar, shes not affected by it in the same way jake is, and so we would learn nothing important about her by seeing her reactions with it.

but i think your theory that dirk intended it specifically as a bodyguard for jake is flawed, too. because he made jane a bodyguard – lil seb – but lil seb didnt “stalk [her]” and “strike when [her] guard is down”.

As I pointed out up there I’m pretty sure I can chalk up Jane not being played by the AR to the fact that AR playing with Jane doesn’t make any sense at all, and AR’s mind games have nothing to do with Dirk’s thoughts or goals because he doesn’t control him anyway.

I don’t really see a reason to put anything on “bad writing” when there’s a perfectly coherent explanation that is backed up by later canon events sitting right here.

You’re missing my point with the Brobot, too.

1) It’s not that the Brobot wasn’t a fuckup. It was! But it was a mutual fuckup born of both Dirk and Jake’s mistakes, because…

2) The Brobot’s goal isn’t JUST to be a bodyguard, you’re right. It’s just also not to provide training, although it includes that function too.

The Brobot is more specific. Its purpose was to set Jake up with an adventure scenario, and Jake’s quest to hunt it down is framed at one repeatedly. Adventures prior to the point it was sent were something Jake always talked about loving but never actually did, because he was too scared of the monsters.

Dirk wasn’t trying to impose training on Jake–he was trying to help him live up to his fantasies of himself. The motivations there are significantly different.

Which again, doesn’t make it not a fuck up. It just turns out to be a relatively happy fuck up, because Jake actually likes the Brobot in the end anyway–so much so he internalizes the image of Dirk as a protector so strongly he believes in it above all else when the chips come down.

As for Jake complaining about the the Brobot, he does most of that in the context of arguing with Hal and wanting to hurry along his adventure. Notice how he admits to liking it and thinking it makes his life more exciting and adventure like when he’s speaking in confidence with Jane, and actually being honest.

The situations are parallel to Tavros and Vriska, because homestuck likes being self-refential and setting up parallels…more often than not to subvert them. There being some visual parallels–ESPECIALLY with flashes, which usually cheat to be more efficient to produce anyway–doesn’t mean there’s a 1:1 correlation between all the morals and power dynamics in a situation.

Like. Come the hell on. This:

Is not the same situation as this:

Forreal. Come on.

ao3sburbanite:

swamp-wizard:

vriska and dirk (at the beginning of their arcs) are both people who take “the ends justify the means” to its logical extreme

theyre both people who grew up from infancy under incredibly adverse circumstances and, instead of acknowledging that that adversity traumatized them, recontextualize their coping mechanisms and survival tactics as “strength”. vriska tells herself that her lusus turning her into a child soldier and constantly dangling the threat of death over her head made her a smarter, stronger, more cunning person. dirk tells himself that growing up isolated from any human contact and being forced to fend for himself against the elements and assassination attempts by the condesce made him capable, self-sufficient, and mature.

they think that adversity made them strong – pressure makes diamonds, steel sharpens steel – and that they are their best selves. and they love their friends (yes, even vriska – look at the way she talks to aradia or terezi), and they want whats best for them. specifically, dirk and vriska want what they think is best for their friends, regardless of their friends actual wants or needs. dirk and vriska think that adversity is what made them strong, so in order to empower their friends, dirk and vriska will be that adversity.

of course this fails because dirk and vriska 1. are stupid children, and 2. lack the social graces or understanding of interpersonal relationships to know when theyre pushing someone past their limits. the only real difference is that vriska is hyper-empathetic, whereas empathy for dirk is a learned skill – vriska has explosive episodes of rage that shes immediately consumed with guilt over, and dirk hurts people because he cant really understand when theyre expressing unease or discomfort

and they both have arcs that revolve around this architecture of strained, broken relationships and inflated egos crumbling around them. all of vriskas friends turn against her. dirks emotional inaccessibility is a prime contributing factor to the trickster clusterfuck. vriska, who thinks that she can handle everything, is killed by terezi in order to prevent a doomed timeline. dirk, who thinks that he can handle everything, is functionally neutered for the entire condesce/aranea conflict when jade teleports him to the furthest reaches of space.

post-retcon homestuck has a lot of flaws (ive written about this extensively before) and one of them is that while dirks arc gets a satisfying resolution, vriskas doesnt. dirk comes face-to-face with his own worst case scenario, how his mindset and behavior has the potential to damage people irreperably, and resolves to make amends and change. (vriska), when divorced from the environment of constant stress and violence that defined her childhood and shaped her as a person, opens up, lets herself be vulnerable, acknowledges her own flaws and shortcomings and ultimately reunites with the terezi from her native timeline. vriska prime doesnt have these same revelations about herself – yes, vriska prime and (vriska) are the same character, and (vriska) exists to show vriskas true nature and potential for introspection and self-awareness, but vriska prime is still exhibiting the flaws (vriska) overcame all the way through the end of homestuck. vriska comes SO fucking close to having a satisfying resolution, swerves, and misses it. thats the fault of bad writing, though.

ultimately though theres more than enough evidence of vriskas character to make her sympathetic and forgivable – more than dirk, even, id say – it takes a certain special kind of cognitive dissonance insist that one is guilty and the other is innocent

While I agree that Vriska is a complicated, nuanced character with a lot of terrible abuse in her past, I do disagree with this point:

“Ultimately though theres more than enough evidence of vriskas character to make her sympathetic and forgivable – more than dirk, even, id say – it takes a certain special kind of cognitive dissonance insist that one is guilty and the other is innocent“

You mention that Vriska has a lot of episodes of rage followed by remorse, but does that really excuse the things she does in these periods of rage? Yes, she had a terrible childhood, but she also inflicted a great deal of pain on others, which she never truly apologizes for. She does make an effort to apologize to Aradia, and Terezi makes it very plain that they’re cool, but Tavros? She paralyzed him and emotionally abused him throughout the entire story. Even discounting that she kills him (you could argue in self defense), she taunts him with his own severed legs while fighting him.

Rage and mental illness do not excuse abuse of others. They can explain it, but they can’t excuse it. Yes, Vriska is a victim in a lot of ways, but she’s also a villain in the truest sense of the word – she turns other people into her victims.

Nevertheless, (Vriska) made a lot of effort to change the things about herself that led to her abusing other people. I like (Vriska) a lot. Main timeline Vriska, though, has never been forced to examine her flaws or apologize for them. It’s clear that Vriska avoids any type of introspection, and is afraid it will make her weak. To complete her arc, she’d need to learn that it’s OK.

Dirk, on the other hand…he isn’t really guilty of much besides simple miscommunication. He and Jake both fail to communicate with each other – the result is that Dirk’s insecurity over whether Jake actually likes him makes him overbearing, and Jake’s failure to communicate that, yes, he does in fact like Dirk but needs some goshdarned alone time sometimes and that doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to be with Dirk anymore means that Dirk ends up pursuing him relentlessly. His darkest deed is to almost murder a brain-clone of himself, but it’s important that he decides not to do it. If he had, then Dirk would have probably been destined for a Just death in the end, because it would have been an unjustifiable act of murdering a defenseless person (regardless of how annoying AR was to Dirk). This is why I think he gets more breaks than Vriska – he has shown himself capable of resisting the urge to do a bad thing, Vriska has not.

The trickster arc is a result of all of the Alpha’s issues – Dirk’s self-hatred, Jake’s lack of faith in himself, Jane’s resentful self-sacrifice, Roxy rightfully feeling under-appreciated for her attempts to keep them all together. I don’t really see how it’s anything to do with Dirk specifically.

I’m pretty busy rn so I appreciate someone else writing what I wanted to so I don’t have to. This, basically.

I think Vriska is a fascinating, nuanced, compelling and deeply sympathetic character. Hell, I think she’s redeemable, if Homestuck is as good to her, (Vriska), and Ghost Tavros as I hope it will be.

There is also not a world in which she’s morally equitable to Dirk. There’s no cognitive dissonance here–just an awareness that just like Vriska and (Vriska) are different characters who went on different journeys and are at different places in the narrative, so are Dirk and Hal.

Hal being the character who actually DOES take “The ends justify the means” approach you’re talking about. The only time Dirk even remotely does anything that seems like doing so is sending Jake the Brobot, and that has little to do with satisfying Dirk’s ends and everything to do with enabling Jake’s.

Don’t really disagree about the ways Dirk fucks up, though–just the degrees. Dirk never sets out to train a kid and make him stronger (again, if that was his motivation, why not train Jane too?) and he certainly doesn’t then break his legs and kill him when he fails to rise to his expectations.

Hal coerces and manipulates Jake in a lot of uncomfortable ways, but Hal is Hal, and Dirk doesn’t like what he’s doing so much that Jake knows about it and Dirk talks to Hal way more angrily and viciously than he ever does to any of his friends.

Dirk DOES need a “redemption” narrative…on about the level of every Alpha. Hal is the one who takes things to abusive extremes, and he gets a rawer deal than Vriska as his redemption because he sacrifices himself to becoming a shitty homoerotic puppet hulk asshole.

Conflating these characters’ identities to this extent is the actual cognitive dissonance if you ask me.

Dirk Strider has Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD).

purplepurpleunicornsparkle:

psychotic-kaworu:

Let me start this off, to avoid confusion, by stating plainly that I myself have NPD as well and that’s why it was so easy for me to recognize.

This post is going to be relatively long. I’ll add a “tl;dr” after every text-heavy section. That will also be bold for convenience.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder’s most prominent and defining trait is the genuine belief that one is superior to all of those around them. Often narcissists will have a sense of entitlement, a need to be recognized for things they have done, and an outright obsession with control. It can develop from many different things, or it can be genetic. Since none of the other Strilondes display serious Narcissistic traits, I’m assuming it was something that developed.

What we know about Dirk is that he grew up alone. Without adult supervision and, well, without anyone. Human beings are social creatures, this can’t be helped. The lack of human interaction he had as a young child could have easily prevented him from growing out of the self-centered nature humans have in early childhood. So, yeah. Neglect is assumed to be one cause of NPD.

tl;dr: Dirk grew up alone and being left alone/neglected as a child is one reason NPD develops.

Beyond that, we can see Dirk has an absolute craze for control. We can see this in his interests as well as in his friendships.

Dirk seems to be a man of a few interests, but the three that stand out the most are puppets, robots, and philosophy. I don’t think much needs to be said for puppets and how that relates to his need for controlling other things, so I’ll move on to robots immediately. Dirk’s use for robots is basically “sparring partner that I will spend months crafting and destroy in days”. This might not seem to say much, but really what it means is that Dirk puts himself into these machines- so much of his own time, energy, resources, etc.- just to inevitably destroy them. Why? To make himself feel as if he is constantly growing and improving as a person? As a plain old power trip? To prove to himself that he is better than even his own creations?

Personally, I think it’s the last one* (I’ll be getting back to this), but any way you look at it Dirk’s controlling personality is seen best through how he treats/views his robots- if not there then in the fact that he makes them at all. Robots are complex, difficult things but they are something created by Dirk that he can control, something easy.

His third major fixation is philosophy. If I had a nickle for every Narcissist who was into philosophy, myself included, I’d be the richest and best person in the world. This relates to his control obsession in that one of his biggest problems with himself is that he can’t control his own thought processes- that he can’t control his own brain. An interest in philosophy is, at its core, a desire to understand brains; and, in this case, an innate desire to control them. For Dirk, I’d guess his interest comes mostly from wanting control over his own brain/body, but that’s not to say he seek to control his friends as well.

tl;dr: Dirk is obsessed with control. This shows in his interests in puppets, robots, and philosophy.

Moving on to concrete textural evidence that Dirk has NPD:

We can see here not only an obsession with control, but a desire for his friends to be flawless. This one doesn’t require much explaining; he wants both Jane and Jake to be better people. For people with NPD, it’s entirely normal to only surround oneself with “special” people (people who are worth our time) and to, at times (or often) suggest ways for them to be even more deserving of having a narcissist in their lives.

DSM-5 Criteria that relates: Believing that you are superior and can only be understood by or associate with equally special people

Now, lets go back to what I said above about Dirk’s desire to understand his own brain, shall we? The fact that he made Lil Hal in his own image is honestly proof enough of his narcissism, but then we have the fact that he frequently talks to him in what I assume to be a way to see how other’s see him, reflect on that, and better himself.

DSM-5 Criteria that relates: Exaggerating your achievements and talents

What was that I was saying about an obsession with control? In this case, it’s because Dirk is the only person Dirk trusts in this position and assumes it’s his and only his decision to make.

DSM-5 Criteria that relates: Expecting special favors and unquestioning compliance with your expectations AND Having a sense of entitlement

Not only is Lil Hal a literal copy of Dirk, meaning he would also have NPD (Which is prominent here as well), but Dirk gets agitated quickly when Lil Hal tries to “one-up” him in any way- whether it be with jokes or with solving pi. Also, with Lil Hal, we see he is rather pompous about what he feels are “victories” over Dirk.

DSM-5 Criteria that relates: Being envious of others and believing others envy you

DSM-5 Criteria that relates: Taking advantage of others to get what you want

DSM-5 Criteria that relates: Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others AND Requiring constant admiration and attention

Dirk assumes things that others do are done specifically to attack him, and that because Lil Hal is an extension of himself he would see Dirk as the “inferior iteration”.

Dirk was extremely clingy in the relationship with Jake, as Jake was/is someone Dirk sees as an equal (the NPD equivalent of a ‘favorite person’).

DSM-5 Criteria that relates: Requiring constant admiration and attention

I can’t explain this one well, and of course there’s nothing related in the goddamn DSM, but this is it. This is the core of NPD. This is what NPD in its entirety is built on, and when Dirk is alone with “himself” (Lil Hal) and his own thoughts, it shows.

Avoiding discussing his own issues to ensure that his friends continue to see him as the perfect person he is.

Dirk puts his own feelings for Jake above Jane’s, personally believing them to be more important and within his own mind even invalidating her feelings for Jake out of either a lack of empathy or envy.

DSM-5 Criteria that relates:
Having an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others OR Being preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate OR Being envious of others and believing others envy you

Lastly, and possibly most telling, we have this:

This is after the whole “[S] Game Over” shit, mind you, When literally everything went to shit? Dirk’s initial response to everything going awry is to assume “it’s all about him”, so to speak. To assume that because he was entirely in control of the situation at hand, everything that went wrong was his fault. And this, having in his eyes failed everyone he cares about and loves and even himself, is what literally breaks him.

DSM-5 Criteria that relates:

Having an exaggerated sense of self-importance

Anyways, this is a long post and not many people care for/about Homestuck anymore, but I just want y’all to know that Dirk Strider canonically has NPD, and while that does not in any way excuse his actions, it definitely explains a lot, if not all, of them.

Me reading this: Well, you know, IF you read all of Dirk’s actions in the absolute least charitable/most selfish light possible then I guess this is a valid reading though it requires assuming the worst of Dirk’s motives in essentially every circumstance which doesn’t mesh with how I interpret the character. But people relate to characters in ways that reflect on him – god knows, I’ve always read some of Dirk’s behavior as potentially bipolar because of my own personal struggles etc so I wouldn’t say that there’s nothing valid to –

*gets to the end*

wh

oh.

nevermind this post sucks.

mom lalonde was emotionally neglectful yes, but because she’s an addict? and you’re willingness to throw her under the bus instead of saying yes, in an alternate universe dirk was a violent child abuser, says a lot about what you think of addicts and women, and is kind of abuse apologism. its ok to like a character but seriously? no one is demonizing dirk. no one is saying hes the worst character ever. but you are so defense & such an ass about it. fucking ridiculous

stormsbourne:

I don’t think this hostility is at all merited, but sure, let’s go.

Mom Lalonde is canonically emotionally neglectful, yes. Glad you agree. In another universe, Dirk was obviously a violent child abuser. I don’t think I’ve ever indicated otherwise. I despise Bro Strider and I am glad he’s dead so Dave can move on as a person. The idea you have that I’m somehow erasing Bro’s crimes is absurd.

My point is that Dirk gets burdened with Bro’s crimes (it used to be quite common to pass around the book 3 quote about Bro being abusive as proof that Dirk abused Jake) but if anything, Mom has had the opposite treatment.

Thankfully I think this is dying off, but you still see a lot of art where Mom is trying her best to connect with Rose and Rose just refuses to give her the time of day! Stuff where Mom is genuine and sweet instead of sort of passive aggressive (and yes, Mom is passive aggressive, and yes, Roxy is hella passive aggressive at her worst moments). Where the war between them was all in Rose’s head and Mom never intended any of it.

Views on that are varied, but I don’t think it’s misogynist or abuse apologist to express that I wish Mom’s neglect and abuse got the same attention from fandom instead of being waved off because Roxy is usually a kind and generous person. Dirk is usually a bit overbearing, but he fiercely loves his friends and outright gives his life to save them in a gambit he’s not even sure will work. Yet people don’t decide that Bro was a saint who just wanted to help Dave and loved him – and as well they shouldn’t! That’d be fucking horrifying!

But there’s a bit of benevolent misogyny at work in refusal to admit that a female character might have also been fucked up, instead treating her alcoholism and emotional neglect as “she did her best” and deciding that her daughter made up the passive-aggression all on her own and just didn’t understand. How isn’t that angle worrying to you?

My point isn’t “Bro is blameless” or even “Dirk could never do what Bro did.” Dirk could. His capability for shittiness makes his struggle to be good all the more meaningful. In the end, Dirk isn’t Bro, and that’s what counts. But shouldn’t we also hold this true for Roxy? Roxy overcomes her addiction and puts her passive aggressive tendencies and need for others to vindicate her by letting her help aside. Roxy grows as a person. That’s good. That’s wonderful. Erasing that Mom was an addict who was definitely at least a little paggro (the bronzed vacuum? the pillow? even if you think everything else was sincere, that stuff is over the top) erases how meaningful it is that Roxy overcame those struggles.

Every time one of these hot takes gets sent they somehow get worse.

I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase “Intent doesn’t nullify abuse” because I’m sure you’re one of the chucklefucks always spewing it about Dirkjake without actually looking at the story you’re talking about, so let me fill you in on my personal background cause that’s where we are I guess:

My mom was a little bit like Bro. I got smacked around a few times when things got really intense.

But mostly, she was like Mom–and she wasn’t an alcoholic. She was codependent. I was regularly in a position where I had to try to understand my Mom as an equal, because her behavior simply didn’t make sense. It was arbitrary and childish and sometimes petty, and though I knew she loved me it made trying to understand how things with her worked kind of a nightmare.

And yes, she loved me but no, she didn’t ALWAYS act in my best interest or in a way that was unfailingly kind and fair to me, because…she’s a human being, and those generally aren’t that perfect. My mom was routinely passive aggressive and I actively stressed out not knowing how she would act any given day she came home.

I’m lucky enough that once I left her house, we were able to repair our relationship. I love my mom dearly! But there’s still plenty of incoherent, bizarre shit she did to me that left lasting anger and that she wouldn’t even understand if I tried to bring it up, and that’s pretty much always going to be part of how I understand my childhood experiences with her.

My point is, there’s a reason I relate to Rose the most out of any of the Beta kids growing up.

My dad, on the other hand, is pretty much like Grandpa–neglectful. He loves me a lot and tries to help me out and give me advice, but there’s a lot about me and my life he’ll outright ignore and pretend doesn’t exist. Like…my LGBT identity, for example.

He does this because it’s easier for him or it makes him less sad about life or he’s busy or whatever–I still love him and he still loves me, but it also still hurts, and it means that we do not communicate and he was not aware of my needs. And that is still damaging, even if it’s not an actively cruel force. There is an absence in my life where my Dad should be.

Just like there was an absence in Jade’s caretaking even before Grandpa died, and in Jade’s case that absence existed because...Grandpa is a Jake who fully indulges his self-serving fantasies to ignore painful emotional realities.

And in case you’re going to ask for receipts on the Guardians, keep in mind Mom offers Rose booze in her strife animation and Grandpa allows his kids to play with loaded guns while he goes on pretend dates with dolls. Neither of these are healthy or well-adjusted people, and they don’t lend themselves to healthy or well-adjusted parents.

There’s one healthy parent in Homestuck: Dad. You can love your kids with all the force in the world and still hurt them. Does that mean they are irredeemably evil and that Jake and Roxy should be judged according to what they’re capable of? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. That’s the point.

Mom and Grandpa also accomplish great acts, like Bro does in saving Dave from a Meteor or having showdowns with Jack. I would argue Mom and Grandpa perform better ones because Bro is, in all things, the worst. I just don’t think it makes sense to apply that to Dirk any more than it makes sense to apply it to Roxy and Jake.

Sure wish whoever these people are would talk about this stuff and consider that we may be reading the canon fundamentally differently and in good faith instead of vaguing about and sniping people I consider friends on anon. Not making an excellent rhetorical case for yourself here, anon.

safersaviour replied to your post “This “Soft Dirk” bullshit being treated as people wanting to soften…”

I would argue strongly against, not all, but definitely most of this. Dirk’s arc is about self-perception, identity, and the weaponisation of that. He is controlling, domineering and can come off as unfeeling (although he very much isn’t). He definitely isn’t looking for acceptance from his peers; when talking to Dave, he outright rejects Roxy and Jane’s positive views of him

Well, we don’t disagree about what Dirk’s arc concerns. We just disagree on it’s focus and execution. Imo he rejects Roxy and Jane’s positive views of him specifically because he doesn’t believe he’s worthy of them, and it’s a core part of his and Jake’s romantic arc that Dirk values Jake’s belief in him, specifically.

But I won’t ask you to read the extensive stuff I’ve written on the subject–you can if you want to, it’s in my tag.

Instead I’ll just ask: Can you give me one instance of Dirk being controlling or domineering? Pick whatever moment you find most grievous, and I’ll let you know where I’m coming from with it. If I find you make a compelling argument for why I should reconsider, I will.