Anon with the book on gnosticism here, figured I should come off anon! After watching the latest Gamzee video, I thought it might be interesting (if not terribly relevant) to share a bit on Dyonisian cults/religion, more specifically their somewhat opposite cult/religion, Orphism. Orpheus is, in Grecian myth, the son of either a human man or Apollo, and Calliope (a name we all recognize), muse of heroic poetry. Orpheus was torn apart at the end of his life by the Maenads of Dyonisian fame.

Oh yes, I’m glad you brought this up. Me and the pals in the patreon discord talked about Orpheus a bit after this Dionysus stuff came out, and I think there are two solid ideas to consider.

The first is we should probably keep an eye out for an Orpheus themed troll in Hiveswap, since the story you mentioned is one of the more notable stories Maenads are involved in, so uh…we might be able to expect such a character might have trouble with Chahut. RIP @ that hypothetical guy, probably.

But it’s also possible Orpheus’ analogue is Already Here, in this guy:

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We won’t get to this in video for a while, so lets just get into it here.

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To start us off, yes–Orpheus’ dies at the hands of the Maenads, specifically for denying his former Patron God, Dionysus–who in Homestuck we can loosely understand as Gamzee in the flesh, and the Grand Highbloods and their ideology symbolically.

Gamzee kills Equius right when Equius turns his back on the Highblood’s ideology, and tries to stop Gamzee from murdering the lowbloods. So there are some legit parallels. An obvious issue here is that Orpheus is killed by the Maenads on Dionysus’ behalf, but there’s a couple things to consider.

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If we’re reading Rage as the aspect of Theatre, then suddenly the masks and identifiers Gamzee wears become much more important. By identifying himself with Nepeta’s cat hat, Gamzee evokes the Maenads’ practice of dressing with panther skins, as Dionysus greatly valued the animal.

Note that Gamzee’s polka-dotted clown pants now suggest the spots on a cat, like the Panthers’.

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Gamzee also enters the scene of Equius’ murder wearing Terezi’s shades.
Dionysian imagery plays into Gamzee’s treatment of Terezi already–Satyrs were known for “breaking down traditional values”, a good example of which is…Law.

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So uh. That puts a new spin on all of Gamzee’s mockery of courts of law whilst pitting Terezi against Vriska. And his literal breaking down of Terezi–emotionally across the meteor, and physically before Game Over.

+ given how Gamzee basically dragged Terezi into his juggalo cult, I think we can–to an extent–read her as an unwilling Maenad, and so Gamzee identifying himself with her symbol here seems relevant.

Back to Orpheus, though. You’re right to point out the similarities between Orphic and Dionysian traditions–both were apparently mystery cults, fitting both the secretive nature of the Mirthful Messiahs and the unknowable nature of Void.

Orpheus in general comes off pretty Voidy–his mythology seems to feature a lot of water imagery, fitting Equius’ sweat motif, for example. But apparently, some held that Orpheus was a mortal version of Dionysus himself:

“Here his death is analogous with that of Pentheus,
who was also torn to pieces by Maenads; and it has been speculated that
the Orphic mystery cult regarded Orpheus as a parallel figure to or
even an incarnation of Dionysus.

Which is certainly interesting because part of Dionysus’ myth is being ingrained in Zeus’ thigh until he grows to reach maturity. This “becoming part of the Patriarch God” narrative evokes, to me, Gamzee and Equius both becoming one with AR/Caliborn, who are both stand ins for Yaldabaoth, the sun-branded Demiurge described in Gnostic mythology.

One of the figures the term ‘Demiurge’ was born to describe was Zeus, and indeed, Caliborn’s arc in particular echoes Zeus at times–Caliborn banishing the beta kids into the house echoes Zeus’ banishing Typheus under Mt. Etna, which was also said to house Hephaestus’ forges.

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And then there’s the most famous myth Orpheus is involved in–his quest to seek his dead wife in the Afterlife.

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When Eurydice dies, Orpheus travels to Hades and charms the gods into letting her travel back to the world of the living with him…

“But thoughtless Orpheus forgot, and when he turned round and looked at his wife, she instantly slipped into the depths again.”

Void is the counterpart to Light, the aspect of the imaginary, the Humanities–the realms of thought. So ‘Thoughtless’ feels particularly Voidy here, especially since it causes a return to depths. Memory and Forgetting pretty clearly tie into Light/Void respectively, too.

I might be reading too much into the wording here, but the basic parallel stands–Equius doesn’t die to find Aradia, but his stint in the underworld coincides with dating a bunch of Aradiabots, and when he returns to the world of the living it’s without her, as…

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A version of Yaldabaoth/Zeus, with a side of Orpheus/Dionysus attached. I’m not totally sure I buy this reading–if we were talking about any Aspect besides Void, which is literally linked to vague and unknowableness, I’d want to feel a lot more certain. Its possible there are other deities that might reflect the Zahhaks better.

But this seems pretty fitting to me, so I thought I’d raise the curiosity.

What do you all think?

the Casspect system is made to challenge the players into becoming their ideal selves, so wouldn’t it make sense for you extended zodiac aspect to be something you wouldn’t like or associate with because it’s meant to challenge you?

In some cases, I guess so. But I don’t really give Kanaya’s line about that that much weight, because I see the Classpects as just being descriptions of who the characters really are already. The characters are going to face challenges because there are challenges in life, and health and unhealthy ways to use their latent power.

Being kids, the characters often don’t know how to use that power in a way good for themselves or others. Learning how to use their power goes hand in hand in learning how to construct their own identities in a way that works for them.

Based on the extended zodiac website, the “circle” of aspects – i.e. which aspects are more thematically similar – seems to differ significantly from its counterpart in your video on the subject. Any thoughts?

Honestly, I’m not super sure what you’re referring to. Are you referring to which Aspects are complementary/paired? Because if so, the pairs are the exact same, nothing much changed about my views there.

The Zodiac had some interesting focuses for each Aspect that led me to change some terms associated with them around, for Rage and Hope in particular. And it seems to imply that the Aspects *next* to an Aspect are also important, along with the one across/complementary from it, which is really interesting but the narrative implications of which I haven’t really felt like I understand yet.

One of those things I’m hoping to understand better through Hiveswap.
Does this answer your question at all?

just finished going through vol. 3 with a couple patrons

jesus christ, skylla’s path was the best written and most painful yet.

this is what ive been talking about for months, that hiveswap would explorethe way alternia just hurts everybody, by design.

but it feels weird to really be experiencing it. kinda surreal, after so long of imagining alternia as an abstract idea, a hypothetical suffering. this makes it real and its…god. the last couple days have already been tough on me in some uh. similar ways, so. i’m a bit shaken.

poor skylla. i’d die for her. i hope hiveswap leads her somewhere that she can be happy, because god she deserves it

Friendsim vol 2 thoughts real quick before I get back to work

Amisia is pretty interesting. Fairly convinced she’s a Maid of Mind, though she’s got arguably more Void coding than Mind coding, which makes sense since she’s an Indigo blood. Healing you through blank holes in the wall, being a “fake” painter, struggling with the creative/imagination part of art, the super strength, so on.

Cirava strikes me as an Heir. They have some Doom influence, despite being a Hope player–suffering and it’s commiserating acceptance obviously has some resonance with their arc, they even say the word “suffering” dramatically at one point if I remember right.

Reason I say Heir is because their role is pretty much entirely to change you for your benefit. When they try to do so directly, it leads to the bad callout post ending. When they take the more passive approach of letting you change yourself, you end up in the good ending.

Interestingly, Hope with Cirava is all about fashion, and making yourself desirable and interesting to a broad audience. I’ll probably have more to say about the Hope angle later, but honestly the fact that both these trolls are linked to the aspect of their Caste as well as their true sign is the most interesting part of all this to me right now. @wakraya‘s true sign caste theory is going strong.

https://www.patreon.com/optimisticDuelist
[The script for this 3-Part Video Series is available to Patrons now.]

I didn’t plan for this, you gotta believe me. The Homestuck thoughts converged on me late in the night, beat me up and MADE me make you start watching what’s now at least a trilogy of videos on Gamzee Makara–often described as the worst character in Homestuck. I’m sorry.

…But is he? A combination of new insights from the fandom and lore details revealed through Hiveswap have left me wondering if, perhaps, this lousy purple clown may have hidden depths after all. I found the questions so exciting, I literally couldn’t resist the impulse to drop everything else I’m working on to share them with you. You’re welcome.

I wanna do something a little different, so I’m going to include a question of the day for each video from now on. Answer it, and you might have higher odds of eventually being featured in a comments response, whenever and however I bring those out for you guys.

This week’s question is simple:
What do you think the relationship between Lil Cal and Gamzee is like?

If you’d like some other perspectives on Gamzee to work off, here’s some of the works that inspired this one:

Tex Talks’ case for Gamzee, Rage, and Plot Contrivance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H7m2…

Oscar @problematwink‘s (200 Page!) Essay on Gamzee’s character arc: https://problematwink.tumblr.com/post…

My prior biggest post on Gamzee (now somewhat outdated): https://revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.c…

I don’t necessarily agree with the exact points raised in any work I link (including my own), but you might find such work useful in responding.

Hope they help! Feel free to respond here, on Patreon, or at:
https://twitter.com/RoseOfNobility
https://revolutionaryduelist.tumblr.com/

Find the music on Bandcamp!:
“Soft Happy Pal”, https://spellmynamewithabang.bandcamp…

“Purple Tyrant”, https://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/…

“Midnight Calliope”, https://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/…

“Blackest Heart (With Honks)”, https://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/…

“Scratch”, https://homestuck.bandcamp.com/track/…    

I think Ardata might be a Witch of Blood or at least roleplaying one. She has many references to blood like “bloodthirsty on main” on her troll call card and her bloodsucking tick lusus. Her familiar might be the pressures and expectations of society put on her due to her blood caste and what higher castes will do if those expectations aren’t met, thus having her be changed by it. She also says that the protag is the only one who has legit tried to befriend her (have a bond). What do you think

I can see it. This is the first time I’ve seen her relationship to her viewers expressed in Blood terms–I’ve had friends suggest them as a Mind Familiar–and at this point I can see it going either way. Blood would definitely tie into her tick, though, so yeah it’d be a logical read.

Still not sure about anything with her, but I’ve added this interpretation to my list to consider. Thanks for the insight!