So Joey is born March 5 right? That would mean she’d have a fuchsia symbol. You previously stated that the colors of the true signs kind of inspire the other sign of that color with their aspect. Which would mean that there is a life aspect tied to joey. Now the funny thing is that the sign of PIPIO (= Fuchsia Sign + Prospit + Light) looks a lot like a flashlight and is also called SIGN OF THE SEARCHER. What do you think about that?

It’s interesting as hell, but I wouldn’t feel comfortable calling it more than conjecture. That said, I’m very curious: Do we know when Jude was born? It’d be fascinating if this actually was consistent. 

soooo, with the new aspects descriptions and the traits they are focusing on and putting in the spotlight as major defining traits of those aspects, do you think you’ll reconsider Joey as Life now instead of Light? (and Jude as Light instead?)

I hadn’t really gotten to Jude yet at all–he still seems like a Doom player, but now I’m more uncertain about all of them.

I have been reconsidering Joey as a Life player pretty heartily, actually, BUT…I think in the end, at least so far, it’s only left me more sure she’s a Light player. 

But the reason why, I think, suggests some new infomation relevant to how the Classpect system works. I’m curious to know what you’ll think about it! 
And since I’m about to record this in video form and it’s pretty overwhelming and difficult to talk about, I think it’ll help to get my thoughts in order somewhat, so I think I’ll do some prep here. 

My logic goes something like this: 

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Xefros is a Rage player. Looking back at Act 1, it’s actually all there in his Page behavior! 
While Xefros himself isn’t angry or upset, he does continually frustrate, anger, and confuse Joey, essentially giving/serving her Rage (in my reading of Knights/Pages, of course).
What’s more, eventually Joey’s anger stops being directed at Xefros and starts being directed at Dammek and Alternia at large, on Xefros’ behalf.

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In this reading, we can understand Dammek keeping Xefros away from the sopor slime as “training” to be a form of serving him Rage, too–the Sopor Slime just keeps trolls away from the chucklevoodos, and the chucklevoodos have already been equated to Rage before. Xefros has been given Rage, to his own benefit.

I had figured that, if Xefros was a Page of Time, he’d eventually gain a Warrior to defend/fight for him through his communion powers–Xultan filled the niche perfectly. Seemed like a solid way to get Xefros to a Brain Ghost Dirk-type power boost or whatever. But Joey is ALREADY one of Xefros’ champions at the end of Act 1, and Xefros got her there mainly through Rage. Pretty solid echo of how Jake won over Dirk initially, or how Tavros won over Vriska/Aradia/Terezi (obviously, all of these to varying degrees of success).

So yeah, Xefros as a Page of Rage checks out. One critical difference, though: Jake and Tavros were already inclined to think in terms of Hope/Breath respectively at 13. While Xefros apparently has a considerable Ragey influence on Joey, he doesn’t seem to be thinking in Rage terms much himself. In Act 1, Xefros’ conscious THOUGHTS center around…

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Time. It’s not just him, either–Dammek has some pretty hefty Breath implications, especially once you consider that the hoverpad he took from Xefros is essentially an object of detachment and flight. But we know Dammek is a Blood player, as opposed to Breath. 

The bottom line is, there’s just too much DRAMATICALLY CAPITALIZED TEXTUAL EVIDENCE linking Xefros to Time and Dammek to Breath to be outright ignored.  We don’t know either way with Joey, but she certainly thinks lot about both Life and Light, and one of them presumably has to be her actual Aspect.

The way I see it, there’s two possibilities at play at this point. It’s totally possible, of course, that all of that stuff was just misdirection, or just stuff we weren’t meant to take seriously or read into. 

But if that’s the case, I’m not sure the fandom can ever actually accurately deduce a character’s classpect based on canon clues. Xefros has some Rage behavior, but it wasn’t telegraphed nearly as strongly as the Time stuff.

So maaaybe WP doesn’t particularly care for this type of speculation? Maybe the Time stuff was just like, general writing, and we’re not really meant to dig into the lore here and try to pick out clues and Figure Shit Out, like I thought we were being invited to do?

That would suck for me, but I would accept it. Hiveswap still has a stellar narrative with plenty of background lore to dissect and explore, Classpect stuff to look through or no. I’d be cool with just waiting for the narrative to tell us what’s going on outright, too.

However, until we know for sure one way or the other what WP intends, I’d like to keep regarding the Classpects as a coherent system with rules that can be figured out and considered in assessing characters’ natures and potential character arcs.

And there’s still the other possibility:

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Calliope told us player abilities can manifest “in defiance with their Aspects” under the right circumstances. We’ve seen this in Homestuck, most clearly with  Rose, which a lot of the fandom (you included, if I remember right?) has parsed under inversion theory.

I differ in that I parse it through Roleplay. It seemed to me that players attempting to act out a different Class, or being forced into acting as one, was always the source of these Aspect “shifts”. 

So Rose manifests Void not because Witch is Seer’s natural opposite, but because Rose is interested in Magicians and wizards and wants to take an Active role in Changing the fate of the session.

But I wasn’t sure if we were dealing with Aspect inversion, ie: the player simply switching to the opposing Aspect, or if the Aspect side of the system was even more flexible and players could focus on any other Aspect in the spectrum, too. 

This is the first clear indication I’ve seen for the latter interpretation.
My current best guess for why Xefros has all this Time focus and Dammek has all this Breath focus is that the blood castes, on Alternia, are somewhat stereotyped in favor of their corresponding Aspects. 

There’s a cultural bias predisposing members of each Caste to think in terms of the Caste’s True Sign Aspect. This is why Xefros implies all Indigos are super strong, but Equius’ introduction says he’s strong because he’s kind of a freak. 

It’s why Goldbloods are the class used to power ships and the like, but Sollux is a mutant, and Vriska says psiionics are a nasty variant of power that goldbloods only “sometimes” have. I reason this based on the naming structure the system itself uses, as sleuthed out by @wakraya

And it sort of makes sense, given Lord English nor Doc Scratch would care to figure out the nuances of every individual troll–the founders of the hemospectrum as it exists on Alternia only had the profiles of the twelve trolls Gamzee and Equius knew to work with, while guiding society’s development of the Caste system.

And this is a fascist, exploitative system, so I would’ve found it odd if it was actually good for the characters to begin with, to be honest?

So if each Sign in a Caste is linked to a different Aspect, but the Caste as a whole is stereotypically connected with or pushed into conforming to one particular Aspect…

Then we’re looking at a world where a lucky few would have the social advantage of being told about their own latent potential through their Aspect
(not that they couldn’t confuse themselves perfectly fine, if they were so inclined), but the great many were kept confused by stereotypes, and the contrast between their inner worlds and their own biological powers. 

This conflict would be different for everyone, and would become even worse factoring in the variety of roles further imposed by society–like Dammek and Xefros being forced into Butlering. 

The end result? A society where almost nobody is given the time and space to figure out who they truly are, and where almost everyone is playing against their strengths in some regard. As a bonus, almost everyone is stressed out, because they’re not allowed to do what would naturally make them happy. 

Sound like Alternia to you? It does to me.
And fostering that kind of widespread societal confusion certainly sounds like something you’d want to do if you were Doc Scratch or the Empress. What better way to keep the threat of uprising at bay? 

As for how it relates to Joey, well–if Aspect roleplay is a thing, then Rose might well have gone grimdark at least partly in imitation of Roxy. And if A. Claire is indeed a mutant clone of Jane Crocker like I suspect, then suddenly Joey has a profound admiration for a Mom she desperately wants to be like.

Hilariously, that means her Maid behavior might be roleplay instead of her actual Class, so I might be debunking myself here! But I’m a little more inclined to think her admiration is manifesting as an interest in the Life aspect in general. 

The key thing for me here is that her interest in Life has a potential source, that we can put under scrutiny going forward. Her interest in Light has no such apparent source, other than her own nature. Hence why I’m still falling on Light as her innate Aspect, at least for now.

As for Jude–I don’t even know right now, there’s too much going on. I’ll have to revisit him once the dust settles and I have some answers I’m more confident about. He certainly seems like someone chosen to suffer in Act 1, though, man. Poor kid. 

I might be reading too much into it, but it seems like a pretty solid way to use Classpects to tell us about the violent and cruel nature of Alternian society. Whether I’m right or wrong about any of this, though, Act 2 is going to be
very interesting. We stand to learn a lot!

do you think the canon test ignores the nuances of the aspects?

Not particularly? The descriptions there just seem to describe the personalities of players bound to particular Aspects, rather than describing the Aspect itself. It’s a different focus, which means this is all new information for the most part–we can add it to the holistic view of Aspects that has been developing over time.

Like, the Light description doesn’t even mention luck. This is clearly not meant to be the definitive, final, COMPLETE GUIDE to Aspects and what they represent. It’s a brief overview meant to inform and entice newbies as to the workings of the system, and I think it does a pretty good job at that!

could you explain more about the Xefros acting as a Page of Rage thing? I find it really interesting!!

I’m not really gonna go into too much detail here. This prompted me to just round up most of what I’ve been meaning to talk about with regards to Homestuck and Hiveswap into a sort of news/lore roundup video going over roughly what I think of where Hiveswap and Homestuck are at as stories and intellectual properties, a revising of my Xefros Classpect post in video form, and some other interesting tidbits peeps might have missed, or that new fans might not even know about!

It’ll be fun, I think, and I’ll try to get it out pretty quick. Stay tuned. 

How does it feel to know that WP just made all of your classpect theorycrafting completely irrelevant with one fell swoop? That your bullshit is finally seen as what it is, bullshit?

? Are you on the same planet as me, anon? Classpecting just got like 20 times more interesting, not irrelevant. 

Curious to know what parts of what I’ve written about you think are debunked. The only thing particularly shaken up as far as I can tell was Xefros’ status as a Time player, and even that we’re already starting to figure out the reasons for. 

Or think we are, anyway! This is an evolving subject. I never claimed to have all the answers, just that I’ve been–and will continue to–keep working towards fandom’s ability to find them. Because it’s fun and interesting. 

Aaaalso most of my original writing has concerned Classes so far, not so much Aspects. And this validated the fandom’s longest standing thoughts about the Aspects as paired items, along with every pairing. So idk I can’t really figure out any angle you’re coming at this from as anything other than trying and failing to be kind of biting and mean-spirited?

dukeofriven:

revolutionaryduelist:

dukeofriven:

zilliumgrist:

zilliumgrist:

I’M GONNA FUCKING DIE HERE ARE ALL THEIR SIGNS

OK SO:

xefros is derse and a rage player

dammek is prospit and a blood player

zebede is prospit and a light player

daraya is prospit and a hope player

tyzias is prospit and a blood player

mallek is prospit and a time player

one of the twins (i think its barzum) is doom and derse

the other one is breath and derse

and trizza is derse and blood

And @revolutionaryduelist officially excuses himself, goes quietly into his room, and all the rest f us here for the next three hours is him storming around while swearing constantly and throwing shit. 

Nah! I’m confused, admittedly, but if anything I find that exciting. Whenever I end up confused with Homestuck it leads to the conclusion that things are way more interesting and complex than I initially thought. If I feel at all like I felt after Act 7, well–last time I felt that way worked out pretty well for me.

It’s really interesting with Xefros in particular because SO MUCH of his Act 1 stuff so heavily involved Time, so like…what’s up? 

Is this new Caste system flawed and prescriptive, like the Quadrants? 
I doubt that, or at least, I’m not eager to suggest this brand-new system is inaccurate or irrelevant. If true, that’ll probably become clear over the next Acts.

Assuming Xefros IS a Rage player is more interesting though, because
A) We’ve got our first unambiguosly good Hero of Rage, which I was hoping for to begin with.
B) Why the focus on Time, then? Given that Caste and Aspect were linked with the Sburb-playing Heroes from Homestuck, is that something being imposed on Xefros and obscuring his true nature, like the Knight role?
Can you force Aspects on people like Classes???

Even if it turns out even stuff like intrinsically linking Time and rapping, admiring a dude you think of as “a figure from History” and imagining elaborate scenarios where said figure uses Time travel to fight a bunch of different versions of himself is all not enough detail to tell us about a Hero’s Aspect, that would in and of itself be interesting. 

If nothing else, it’ll make it a lot easier to pinpoint how Homestuck/Hiveswap actually try to telegraph Aspect affinity. I’d take a chance at establishing a coherent logic over being right about this particular thing any day.

I’ll PROBABLY still do a classpect video on Xefros? I might even do it before Joey’s to put these questions at the forefront of any Classpect series.

Wow I needed to write all that out. Ok, back to work on videos–thanks @ everyone who sent me asks and sorry I didn’t answer more of them! The bottom line for now is that I find this all very interesting but I don’t think we have quite enough information to figure out how it all fits together.

That said I’m probably due for a quick replay of Act 1 to see if Xefros has any Rage references I missed. 

I’m of the low-key opinion that this more closely resembles Reductionist Buzzfeed Quizzes than anything else. Frankly your analysis of Xefros is built on textual evidence in Hivebent – this quiz doesn’t read anything like him. Your reading feels much more solid than this bit of marketing hype.

I’m flattered, but I’m also not about to go saying my analysis trumps official content, y’anno? If you don’t defer to the text–whatever bizzare form it comes in–it’s easy to get stuck in assuming you’re right. 

If it turns out I AM right and Xefros is a Time player, my guess is this caste system will indeed turn out to be flawed in text, much like the Troll quadrants did. I know we’re all excited, but it’s worth keeping in mind these are canonically castes assigned by a dystopian fascist power structure. 

That it’s not perfect at describing the people it sorts is a real possibility–it’s not like Xefros got to fill out so much as a buzzfeed quiz. 

Really though I don’t have a clue right now one way or another. All i’ve got are questions. Very interesting ones, though, at least for me. 

banavalope replied to your post “dahniwitchoflight replied to your post “luciotheheirofspace reblogged…”

Rage as an aspect at face value is hard to swallow but aspects are also given to players as challenges. Xefros is like the exact opposite of someone “rageful” but he’s in line with the description of someone that’s basically against authority and wants revolution. Otherwise he wouldn’t be in on it with Dammek, but if he really IS a rage player I think the implication would be his challenge is to meet this potential as someone more strongwilled and less fooled than he is

That’s quite possible. I tend not to think about the classpects as challenges to the players too much, mostly because it seems to me like at least in Homestuck, players were ALWAYS executing their classpects in some way or another–Jake was always serving himself Hope/through Hope, Gamzee was always destroying Rage (the beat where he calmed down Eridan, for example), so on.

So if Xefros IS a Rage player, I would’ve expected that to show up from the beginning. All of his Act 1 coding seems to heavily concern Time, but it’s quite possible I missed stuff (someone already reframed his excitedly crushing the soda can as a Rage thing, which I’m considering), and you’re right that there’s some ways he fits the profile.

My guess is the test is accurate, and Xefros is a Rage player. I’m just not sure what that means for the audience’s ability to deduce a characters’ classpect through canon clues. Hopefully revisiting Act 1 and later acts will make the logic that WP employs in writing Classpects a lot clearer to us, with so many characters in play. 

dukeofriven:

zilliumgrist:

zilliumgrist:

I’M GONNA FUCKING DIE HERE ARE ALL THEIR SIGNS

OK SO:

xefros is derse and a rage player

dammek is prospit and a blood player

zebede is prospit and a light player

daraya is prospit and a hope player

tyzias is prospit and a blood player

mallek is prospit and a time player

one of the twins (i think its barzum) is doom and derse

the other one is breath and derse

and trizza is derse and blood

And @revolutionaryduelist officially excuses himself, goes quietly into his room, and all the rest f us here for the next three hours is him storming around while swearing constantly and throwing shit. 

Nah! I’m confused, admittedly, but if anything I find that exciting. Whenever I end up confused with Homestuck it leads to the conclusion that things are way more interesting and complex than I initially thought. If I feel at all like I felt after Act 7, well–last time I felt that way worked out pretty well for me.

It’s really interesting with Xefros in particular because SO MUCH of his Act 1 stuff so heavily involved Time, so like…what’s up? 

Is this new Caste system flawed and prescriptive, like the Quadrants? 
I doubt that, or at least, I’m not eager to suggest this brand-new system is inaccurate or irrelevant. If true, that’ll probably become clear over the next Acts.

Assuming Xefros IS a Rage player is more interesting though, because
A) We’ve got our first unambiguosly good Hero of Rage, which I was hoping for to begin with.
B) Why the focus on Time, then? Given that Caste and Aspect were linked with the Sburb-playing Heroes from Homestuck, is that something being imposed on Xefros and obscuring his true nature, like the Knight role?
Can you force Aspects on people like Classes???

Even if it turns out even stuff like intrinsically linking Time and rapping, admiring a dude you think of as “a figure from History” and imagining elaborate scenarios where said figure uses Time travel to fight a bunch of different versions of himself is all not enough detail to tell us about a Hero’s Aspect, that would in and of itself be interesting. 

If nothing else, it’ll make it a lot easier to pinpoint how Homestuck/Hiveswap actually try to telegraph Aspect affinity. I’d take a chance at establishing a coherent logic over being right about this particular thing any day.

I’ll PROBABLY still do a classpect video on Xefros? I might even do it before Joey’s to put these questions at the forefront of any Classpect series.

Wow I needed to write all that out. Ok, back to work on videos–thanks @ everyone who sent me asks and sorry I didn’t answer more of them! The bottom line for now is that I find this all very interesting but I don’t think we have quite enough information to figure out how it all fits together.

That said I’m probably due for a quick replay of Act 1 to see if Xefros has any Rage references I missed.