the-flowers-ghost:

roselalondetrash:

revolutionaryduelist:

ink-and-homestuck:

Let’s take quick look at Light and Void players:

Light:

Rose: Interested in psychology, especially in Sigmunt Freund’s theories.When she looked for answers she asked outside sources ( Doc Scratch, Kanaya, Horrorterrors). Interested in writing and reading.

Vriska: She has power of stealing someone’s mind, which may be some connection to Rose’s interest in psychology. But more important, she has wide knowledge about history, which she possessed from Mindfang’s journal.

Aranea: She is obliviously interested in history, sociology, and psychology. Her endless speeches about various topics definitely prove that. It’s also worth notice, that her post-scratch self also had historical knowledge (Mindfang knew about Sufferer and Summoner’s revolution in the future. She gained this knowledge as Rose, from outside sources)

Void:

Roxy: She is not only good with computer, she is master hacker. Her pre-scratch self is scientist, probably involved in some kind of space exploration, as suggest observatory in her house.

Equius: His sign is “Sign of Engineer”. He is interested in robotics, probably in coding, too, since making functioning robot requires some level of IT skills. He probably gained skills needed to build Aradiabot by constant training.

Horuss: As was said by Aranea, he is “Renaissance man”, and master of mechanics. His post-scratch self was also interested in robotics. Self made man, who learned everything by himself.

Epistemology:

For those who don’t know, epistemology is theory of knowledge. It helps us tell apart knowledge, assumptions and opinions. It also helps us tell difference between science and pseudoscience.

So, what is has to do with aspects? A lot.

Light players are ones interested in psychology, historiology, books and stories.

Void players show interest in so called “real science”, not in human-centered studies like light players.

One of the most famous philosophers, Karl Popper saw difference between these kinds of science.

What may appear as weird to us he called Freund’s psychology pseudoscience. Now, we consider psychology as valid science, but then Popper had reason to call it that. Why? Because Freund’s theories was formed in the way that makes them seem always right. For example, Freund said that source of psychological problems lies in our past, but some of the issues could be explained by two different causes, for example sucking a thumb could be explained by not being breastfeed enough or being breastfeed too much or (in case of female patient) penis envy. Now psychologists use scientific methods and make their theories disprovable, but still, there are argues in scientific circle about their reliability.

He pointed out that in order to truly know something we have to try to disprove our believes, find ways to measure them and  get rid of subjectivity. For example if we want to find out that bad breastfeeding causes thumb sucking, it’s not reasonable to find someone who claims he was fed to much or not enough and who sucks thumb, because these two things may be coincidence. Sadly, Freund’s study was made like that.

Real scientist would define what means to breast feed “too much” and “not enough” in measurable way and examine set of kids that was fed too much and too little and see if there isconnection.

Karl Popper also disapproved historicism, because he thought that any kind of theories are subjective and are not possible to falsify. How we see, Vriska “replays” events that happened to her ancestor, making passively statement that “history repeats itself”. she is also obsessed with idea of luck, that was not accepted by Karl Popper, because it heavy subjective.

Using subjective outside sources (like diaries or tales)  was also disapproved by Karl Popper, because it was also subjective.

On the other hand you can’t be wrong in IT field or robotics, because something works or not. You can only gain knowledge that helps you make something that works better. Roxy and Equius are interested these fields. Roxy hacked Sburb game files and Equius was self-learning robotics gaining skills that were useful in constructing Tavros’ robotic legs or Aradiabot. Mom is scientist. Horuss is interesting one. How was said he is a “Renaissance man” . Mainstream philosophers of Renaissance put mind over emotions. Karl Popper’s philosophy was heavily influenced by Francis Bacon, who was one of the first thinkers that proposed setting off subjective data from scientific theories.

Conclusion

Void bound players are bound to non-subjective facts, science and “lean more toward casting doubt on what is already considered fully understood”

Light players are bound to subjective knowledge and outside sources that they “able to take multiple sources of information and synthesize them into something useful.”

@revolutionaryduelist what do you think about that?

Ack, sorry this took so long! I’ve been really busy and I spent a while trying to figure out what I’d want to say.

I have to be honest, my reading skills in terms of like, high level philosophical stuff is not always the best, so I’m kind of having a hard time following the stuff you said about the philosophers.

That said, I think this is a really compelling contrast, and makes me feel more sure about my view that Light is linked to “idealistic” reality/the World of Ideas and Void to “Materialistic” reality/the World of Matter.

In other words, Void players are more attuned to the physical world. Light players deal more heavily in the world of thought/concepts. I’d say I feel a lot more confident in that idea after reading this, so thank you. :B

Critique:

Materialism in Light Players

Rose is interested in empiricism. Her arc in Act 5 Act 2 resolves much on wanting to figure things out for herself through study (destroying her land for the sake of acquiring more knowledge about it). She writes a guide based entirely on her empirical observations of the game, and ponders how to investigate prototyping and alchemy to their fullest extent. She wants to figure everything out in a quantifiable manner.

Vriska is obsessed with quantifying the unquantified. She loves games and stats, which bring substance to things otherwise impossible to make into quantities, like skills and experiences. She loves loot and money. Her very powers make something that is impossible to substantiate (luck) into a quantified resource (all of the luck/none of the luck).

Aranea cares little for philosophy or morals; post-Openbound Aranea and Mindfang are obsessed with goals and winning, with little care for aesthetic or meaning once she escapes her earlier self. She cares little for what other people thing, and acts like she knows everything without concern.

Idealism in Void Players

Roxy is a writer just as much as Rose is. She’s much more feeling oriented than most either characters mentioned here (Rose, Horuss, Equius), too. She knows a lot about history, being from the future and having access to the entire past, like Dirk. She’s also attuned to the most sources, and uses her connections and information to pull her friends together. We never see Mom Lalonde actually do any scientific research save make a ton of cats, and her frivolity and nostalgia are most prominent than her scientist facade.

Equius’ has a clear shtick for philosophy and psychology, wanting everything to fit into his preconceived elitist notions of how people should act and behave (which is a big part of Freudian psychology when applied to the real world, especially during Freud’s time.). Heck, most of his machines half-work (Aradiabot, for instance?) and technological plans can have as many states of being wrong as ideas can, especially when working outside of binary states. Equius is obsessed with past society and culture, too.

Horuss’ arc in Openbound is heavily connected to introspection and self-discovery. He talks about trying fix his “inner void” by finding souls and beings to fill his personality with. This is quite connected to psychology, and Horuss is associated strongly with kinship and systems; things that completely removed from the physical world. He uses all of these sources to create himself, and cares little about what physically exists (such as his relationship with Rufioh).

These are really good points, @roselalondetrash and they are important to keep in mind because the aspects do include parts of each other that make them what they are. I think what @ink-and-homestuck is trying to say though is that the most prominent and visible interests of both these aspects, Light and Void, differ. I hope I talk abt these subjects right, I’m not used to using these terms, but here we go!

LIGHT: While Rose and Vriska do quantify what they do, measure things, and precariously pick apart reality, what they are picking apart is their interests as Light players: psychology, knowledge, fortune. They use effective methods of reaching their goals, and this can connect them to Void’s interest in empiricism, but mostly in methods of approaching their subjects.

VOID: I think similarly the Void players use history and understanding of humanity to meet their own ends! Roxy does have feelings, but that does not mean she cannot be oriented more towards the scientific. As for Mom Lalonde, I think her interest in science was real and solid, not just some facade: she had an expensive house and a laboratory and lived very close to a scientific corporation which she probably worked at, maybe even owned. I don’t think it was just a gimmick!

Equius did hold great stock in history and culture, pushing it onto other people, but it was as if keeping a code, something he saw as constantly proven all around him all the time, and thus he COULD NOT break from it!! He knew this was how the world works, and seeing no evidence to the contrary, he fully believed in it, as a true scientist would! He builds Aradiabot to be what he thinks is “better” because Highbl00ds are better than rust bloods because that is what his society proved to him again and again. Empiricism and science are not always right, and theories are constantly disproven. It doesn’t mean the actions these players had were always going to be right, and to believe so is to believe machines and science are the only things that can be right and humans are only wrong! But both are sometimes right, and both are fallible.

As for Horuss, he has always been angry and strong and focused on building and breaking and his blood color and musclebeasts, all things that require real-life evidence. He’s been continuously interested in these things, and just because he is trying to understand his personality and psychology does not discredit these interests. Nor should his interests in psychology be discounted!! But I think they are different from his usual developments, and also spurn from trying to understand the nature of Void, which is nearly impossible for anyone save a Void player themselves. The aspects are found in each other, and trolls and humans are not usually in lack of other pieces of aspects. Heart and Mind are good examples, it’s hard and pretty much impossible to have one without the other.

I hope this made sense!! I guess in CONCLUSION: The aspects contain pieces of each other in each player, and the major interests usually fall into similar categories. The ways of approaching those interests or of achieving goals seem to draw on other aspects interests, but that does not discount the aspect and the interests themselves, or in other words the means does not discount the subject. i.e. Vriska gaining wealth and quantifying it can be thought of as “wealth=subject” and “gaining and quantifying=means”.

I think there’s been theory about how aspects and their opposites support each other? @revolutionaryduelist may have talked about it in their aspect and classes video, but I don’t exactly remember. Otherwise, the theory is out there, and it may be applicable here. I hope this made sense.

Man this discussion is proving really awesome. I think @the-flowers-ghost hit the nail on the head, with regard to the aspects containing seeds of their opposites, though I def don’t think I presented the view myself.

All I really have to add is that although Equius holds a great passion for culture/the arts, it tends to be couched in either his appreciation for physical things like Strength (Musclebeasts), or a passion for history, as flowers said.

This is critical, because it means Equius is getting his information from the outside, physical world–not from his own inner world. Information coming from Alternia’s history is ultimately coming from the physical reality of Alternia’s universe–or at least, what the empire deems fit to broadcast as such.

In Gnosticism (which in my view plays heavily into reading both Light and Void), the world of Physicality/Matter/Physical Reality is considered the world of darkness, and is generally treated as a realm of misfortune and misinformation.

This is the source of my view that physical reality itself is Void coded.
Equius is interested in Alternian culture, but what that generally means in practice is that he’s invested in trying to force others to subscribe to and live by the lies that Alternia feeds them about themselves, lies which are based on their physical bodies’ blood colors.

Notice how Vriska regards the Hemospectrum as bullshit almost instinctually, despite being very aware of the power dynamics and societal pressures it puts on her. She trusts the story she reads (feat. Mindfang, a character who doesn’t care about the social order and accepts death at the hands of a lowblood) over anything Alternia tells her.

I hope this is understandable? This stuff can get hard to talk about. Also yikes, this is getting long.