It’s true that we would lose the Opposing Spirals if Who is this ? is the Lord. But Lord English (and by extension, Caliborn), is linked to a really big loop (a timeloop that spans multiple universes), and Who is this ?’s sign is a big loop. Maybe that could be the “link” : While the Muse’s sign has a spiral in it, the Lord’s sign is just a loop (Being the entire symbol opposed to being a part of it) The only problem we could have is Lunar Sway, as they are both Prospit Dreamers.

That’s a very good point. While Caliborn is associated with a spiral, Lord English is strongly linked to the Perfect Circle, itself pretty much the symbol of the Paradox–”A SHAPE WITHOUT ANGLES. WHAT.”

Circles might be another thing we want to look out for with Marvus, Whodis, and whatever other characters show up that give us Lordly vibes.

Do you think there’s a chance of anyone dying in the epilogue?

Possibly Caliborn (There might be a worse fate in store for him, stuck in a black hole for eternity), maybe Gamzee (he might get revived), maybe Arquis (There’s a chance Davepeta could snatch his components outta LE)

I think everyone else will be fine. Maybe more than fine, if my guess is correct and Jane turns out to be the savior of the dreaming dead all along.

In your Gamzee part 1 video you mention that Lord English is a physical entity on Alternia that the Highbloods worship. But I thought LE didn’t actually manifest there, and only worked through his agents (Scratch/Handmaid/etc). Was LE actually there, or did I misunderstand what you meant there?

Nope, he’s literally already there. Here’s the breakdown of LE’s influences per universe, NOT counting cross-universe influence situations like Gamzee making the Jack Noir/Lil Cal dolls in John and Dave’s heads, because seriously we could be here all week.

Pre-Sburb :

Beta Earth | Setting of Hiveswap [B1]:
No Lord English. Lil Cal and the Batterwitch are both present. The Batterwitch MAY have started a small Mirthful Messiah cult, which might be operating in Joey’s hometown.

Alpha Earth [B2]:
No Lord English. Society is run into the ground and reduced to a nightmare waterworld dystopia by the Batterwitch, acting as a Witch on LE’s behalf. She employs a massive Mirthful Messiah cult that takes over the U.S. Government in this endeavor*.

Caliborn is present, but ignorant of his future as LE. AR acts for himself, not LE, but echoes many of Scratch’s traits and so evokes a weaker version of the controlling horror of LE. This is intentional, as AR’s cyber-omniscience is part of what makes LE/Scratch’s control so terrifyingly efficient.

*(Sorry 2 Guy Fieri and Juggalos, who get it rough from Homestuck, to put it mildly. Please remember that Homestuck is a work of fiction just poking fun at some random people, ok? Thanks. Also, to be fair, mind control is kind of a thing with the Batterwitch, so she might just be mindcontrolling them all during that whole thing.)

Beforus [A1]:
No Lord English. Presumably no Lil Cal? Kurloz Makara acts for Lord English. Meulin Leijon is mind controlled or manipulated by Kurloz into acting for Lord English.

It’s noted that while Beforus was matriarchal, most of its actual power of governance was held by Purplebloods and Violetbloods–male dominated castes that collectively embody different versions of LE’s patriarchal dominance.

The Purplebloodsin particular are probably Mirthful Messiah cultists, if Kurloz is anything to go by, but we don’t know for sure.

Alternia [A2]:

Doc Scratch acts for LE, manipulating trolls into being as cruel and vicious to each other as possible. At the end of the universe, Doc Scratch dies and his corpse hatches, giving birth to LE. LE can time travel, so having arrived at the end of the universe, he can now access any point in its timeline to consume or destroy whatever he chooses.

This was Scratch’s objective from the beginning, and had always already happened. LE takes custody of Damara, who becomes the Handmaid–
LE’s loyal Time Witch, acting as a feared Demoness who stokes hostility and chaos wherever she appears.

With the exception of directing Damara, Scratch and LE rarely seem to directly involve themselves in the affairs of Trollkind.  The three main groups of trolls they delegate governance to are:

The Empress, who he manipulates while keeping his and LE’s existence hidden.

The Violetbloods, who seem to be manipulated similarly.

The Purple Bloods, who worship Lord English and prophecize about the coming of his Vast Honk. Their intense commitment to this truth motivates their brutal subjugation of lowbloods.

This is not a simple belief, but a fact they are right to see coming. LE releases the Vast Honk as soon as he enters the universe, thus proving them right all along. Hence, the Vast Honk can be understood as “inviting destruction through Rage|Truth.”–the verbiage associated with Gamzee’s title, Bard of Rage. 

This more direct presence/involvement is the direct reason why Alternia is so much worse than the other universes, and a big part of why the Beta Trolls are so much crueler to each other than the Kids are.

One thing I’m really, really confused about is when does Caliborn’s masterpiece take place, and are the beta kids who get sealed in the juju the same beta kids in act 7 who make earth c? Do you have recommendations for posts that would help someone “get” the ending? Also, how does LE cause everything that happens in HS? (Sorry, this is a lot, I just finished homestuck and I have a feeling I’m gonna be sending you a lot of questions, if that’s alright. Thanks!)

The Masterpiece takes place after the end of Homestuck–it’s probably circumstantially simultaneous with the final defeat of LE. Caliborn is taunting John in the credits to entice him to come fight him, since Caliborn knows the kid’s challenge will be the moment he becomes Lord English.

At some point in Earth C’s future, the kids go fight LE. The Epilogue will probably cover the Masterpiece in more detail, along with the moment the kids are released from the Juju they’re trapped in.

If you want to understand the ending, theres a couple good posts. @wakraya did a really sweet post on the ending from a metatextual perspective. Tex Talks did a good video talking about the symbolic imagery in Act 7.

And then there’s this stuff I wrote on the nature of LE and Homestuck’s story structure:

https://medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/apotheosis-and-creation-myth-2257d7bf5854

https://medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/part-4-gnostic-myth-literally-fucking-everything-769c1e57af22

GAMZEE MIGHT MAKE SENSE ACTUALLY —


It never stops from keep happening.

[ACT 1==> THE MIRTHFUL MESSIAHS]


Most of the Homestuck fandom will tell you that Gamzee Makara is a broken character, and with good reason. It’s not just that his actions are morally repugnant, but that he seems like a hollowed out caricature of a character, almost deliberately crafted by the author to be as flat and nonsensical as possible.




The author of the story literally tells us that his actions probably don’t make any sense, and a lot of the fandom has decided to take that literally, believing that Andrew Hussie didn’t know what he was doing when writing this character — or, more likely, was just “trolling” us.

The end result is a character that is, for most, deeply unpleasant to think about for all sorts of reasons — he commits all kinds of acts of depraved and distasteful immorality, but we’re also barely told anything about who he is, how he does what he does, or why he even does it.

But I think there’s a coherent strain of thought behind Gamzee’s character, and while I consider Gamzee responsible for everything he did, I think there’s a case to be made that his worldview made him uniquely malleable and exploitable by Lord English.

You probably won’t believe me about this, but then, that’ll be kind of the point. Introductions complete, let’s begin our Descent.




The Rage-bound care about truth more than anything. They aren’t so much religious or spiritual as they are deeply dogmatic and intense about their worldviews — in essence, they’re conspiracy theorists.


Understanding this is vital, because at the core of Gamzee’s narrative is a schism between two major versions of his character, separated by an intense crisis of faith.


Gamzee is a Bard: The Passive Destroyer Class. This means we can understand him as one who allows Rage to be Destroyed, or invites destruction through Rage. Rage rules over concepts like anger, fear, hate, doubt, and confusion, and Gamzee will often be found exerting his influence over the story through both definitions of his title, sometimes at the same time.






Early Gamzee is little more than a 420 joke — he’s depicted as a harmless stoner juggalo who simply wants to make his friends happy.



He worships his personal vision of the Mirthful Messiahs, an obscure religious cult largely made up of Purple-Blooded trolls like Gamzee, the Highest blood color of Alternia’s Hemospectrum that belongs to Land-dwelling trolls.



Highblood privilege allows him a sheltered upbringing and the freedom to indulge his soporific drug habit, and as a result he seems completely out of touch with the true nature of his religious order.




In reality, Alternia’s Grand High Bloods are an obscure but powerful cult devoted to the worship of Lord English, a physical God who exists on Alternia and tortures trollkind throughout its history through a number of Agents.

The Highbloods are one of these agents: religious enforcers who control the population through a combination of brutal executions and psychic Chucklevoodos that poison lowblood’s minds with nightmares of gore and violence, fear, anger, and paranoia.




Gamzee’s crisis of faith comes about when Dave Strider exposes Gamzee to the real-world inspiration for his religion: The Juggalo subculture formed around the Insane Clown Posse. When Gamzee learns about this, he regards it as heretical, and a desecration of everything he believes in.

He soon comes into contact with two messengers of his God, Lord English. 
First is Lil Cal — a doll containing the Lord English’s composite, twisted soul. Gamzee looks into Lil Cal’s eyes, and in the depth of those peepers he discovers a horrifying, unavoidable truth:






Inviting destruction through the HIghblood’s Truth|Rage

Just as Caliborn does later, Gamzee recognizes one of the souls that makes up Lord English as his own — meaning Gamzee’s soul is, in effect, partly responsible for starting his own religion.


Gamzee is initially distraught and confused by this knowledge, but he soon begins to trust Lil Cal and the souls within, and decides to reframe his worldview according to what it tells him.





Lil Cal can be highly influential to those who hold it, as Gamzee and Bro both begin to pick up phrases and habits originally native to Caliborn while in contact with the doll. Because Bro is a highly Active class and Gamzee a highly Passive one, we also have grounds to believe Gamzee more susceptible to suggestion.




But the relationship doesn’t seem to be mind control, since this form of psychic influence is distinct from the full mind control Lil Cal proves capable of later. Rather, Gamzee implies he welcomes Lil Cal like a best friend.






Specifically a replacement for Tavros, who Gamzee had romantic feelings for. 
The Purple Sign Caste description tells us Gamzee is a strictly monogamous and devoted lover, and he goes on to prove it.

We can see Tavros’ death as the moment Gamzee’s relationship to the rest of his friends is severed, and he devotes himself fully to the new object of his affections: Caliborn — the Cherub boy who will eventually become 
Lord English.

And why?



Because Lil Cal gives him the truth.


[ACT 2 — THE VAST JOKE]

At this moment, Gamzee simultaneously receives three divine revelations: 
He discovers that his cult’s God exists in physical form, the cruel and brutal nature of this God, and that he himself is this God.


The important thing is that Gamzee does not choose to believe these things — he’s confronted with unavoidable proof for all of them. He’s confronted with a raw, physical, tangible truth.


Now forced to accept this truth, Gamzee embraces the violent and vicious roots of the cult, becoming a Dark Messiah ruthlessly devoted to bringing about the advent of his God.



He taps into his ancestral memory of the Grand High Blood, a notable head of the cult and Gamzee’s Ancestral Figure. He begins imitating the Highbloods and murdering his lower-blooded friends.





Starting with Equius, one of the other characters whos soul becomes part of LE’s. Equius must become Arquis for Lord English to be born, which Gamzee would also have found out from Lil Cal. He kills Equius and hoards his corpse.





After securing the other component of Lord English in his session, he targets female characters that Caliborn later goes on to single out for death in his retelling of Homestuck. He kills dear, sweet, precious, DEAR Nepeta before our eyes, while Caliborn describes her as useless and irrelevant. The monster.






Vriska is targeted for her ambition and attempts at relevance. Rather than confront her directly, Gamzee drags Terezi Pyrope into the conflict.





He does so by manipulating Terezi to play up her anger and frustration with Vriska. He also encourages her to take on the Neophyte Redglare persona she used to roleplay during FLARP campaigns she and Vriska waged together, partnered as the Scourge Sisters.








Caliborn singles Terezi out for getting between his One True Pairing of Dave and Karkat, and though she doesn’t die, Gamzee makes sure she suffers for this.

After Terezi kills Vriska, Gamzee and Terezi enter a Kissmesitude, and he starts harassing and emotionally abusing her, wearing down her self-respect and ability to focus and help her friends for the rest of the adventure.






Inviting destruction through fear/Rage.

He also uses his Caste-given Chucklevoodos to mess with the Beta Kid’s minds, rendering them all somewhat mentally unstable. He pays special attention to John, seeding in his mind the clown doll that acts as the source of John’s self-loathing messages and clown scrawlings.





Inviting destruction through anger/Rage.

Which indirectly contributes to Jack Noir’s Rage fueled rise to power, and destruction of the Beta’s session.


However, perhaps because Bard is one of the most Passive classes, pushing himself into behaving so actively is exhausting and stressful for him.
While Gamzee’s behavior during Horrorstuck is impactful, it’s also unsustainable, and he soons settles down with some help from Karkat.




He’s then contacted by Doc Scratch, Lord English’s second emissary. 
Scratch is LE’s best bureaucrat, smooth salesperson, and master manipulator. He’s also a part of Lord English himself, a puppet that LE uses to carry out tasks he doesn’t want to perform himself.

It’s Doc Scratch who manipulates Trolls into being as violent and cruel as they are, across their entire planet’s history. And since Scratch’s soul includes Dirk’s cyber-omniscient AI Auto-Responder, Equius, and Gamzee himself, Scratch is also aware of all the events to come in the second half of Homestuck.



In [S] Cascade, Gamzee talks to Scratch, and by reporting the completion of Horrostuck’s events, implies he was doing everything he did on the orders of Scratch, Lil Cal, or both. Then he asks what’s next.

So Scratch is in a position to offer Gamzee something unique: A script. 
Through Scratch, Gamzee could have learned everything he needed to do over the course of the Alpha Kid’s session in order to bring about the birth of LE.

This is why Gamzee complains about Vriska in the Post-Retcon timeline.
There’s a plan in place that the Cult of the Mirthful Messiahs is following, and Vriska cheating her way into being alive throws that plan off the rails.

But in learning his role, Gamzee would also learn something else. 
A deep truth of Homestuck’s universe, that would reshape the way he sees the world, and the way we see Rage. He would learn that Homestuck…isn’t real.

Homestuck is a story. A story told online, by an author: Andrew Hussie, who wrote Gamzee’s life into existence as a silly parody of the Insane Clown Posse.
An author who created Gamzee’s life to be a joke.





But Homestuck is also the story of how Lord English murdered its author, and took over the story for his own, ensuring that his dominance is forever absolute. LE cannot be defeated. LE cannot be stopped.

And Gamzee cannot die, because he has to become part of LE for the story of Homestuck to exist. Knowing this means Gamzee sees the story for what it is — as a jokey webcomic structured like a theatre play, with himself as the comic relief.

Where the rest of the characters see The World, Gamzee sees a Stage.


[ACT 3— THEATRE OF DIONYSUS]




Perhaps Gamzee’s biggest recurring symbol is the masks of comedy and tragedy-the archetypal symbol for Theatre and Tragicomedy. The harlequin mask keys he and Caliborn use to power on the MSPA terminal grant Caliborn the ability to view and influence every event in the entire story — letting him take ownership of the play of Homestuck itself.




Maenad, Top Right | Satyr, Bottom Right

We can more about theatre through the Troll Call purpleblood Chahut’s 
last name: Maenad.

In Greek Myth, the Maenads were the female companions to Dionysus— the Greek God associated with wine, epiphanies, religious ecstasy, and ritual madness. Also associated with Dionysus are half-goat men called Satyrs, who are described as “ archetypal musicians and dancers”, associated with the breaking down of traditional values.



Like Gamzee, Dionysus is also intimately connected to his Godly All-Father, the Demiurge: Zeus for Dionysus, Lord English for Gamzee. Zeus saved his son by sewing him up in his thigh and keeping him there until he reached maturity, so that he was twice born. Similarly, Gamzee is Born Again when he discovers his ultimate fate is to become part of Lord English.




Worship of Dionysus is also credited with the eventual founding of Theatre, particularly the Tragedy genre. An early predecessor of Theater is the Satyr Play, a largely comedic and slapstick performance reminiscent of the Trickster Mode sequence.






Early theatre often employed the use of masks, allowing actors to easily switch between portraying different characters. This colors almost every action Gamzee takes as performative in nature — recognizing Homestuck for the story it is, he plays whatever character is convenient to achieve his objectives.

Gamzee also uses theatre’s history of audience participation to punish the viewer directly. We can view pretty much every nonsensical impact on the plot he has this way — like how his immortality is literally derived from “Plot Armor”, practically begging the audience to call the story on its bull.

But in particular, every sprite he creates in the Alpha session seems deliberately designed to cause as much frustration and anger as possible, not just for the characters, but for Us — the fans.

Seriously. Hear me out.



Eridan and Sollux’s mutual hatred made them two of the most popular characters over the course of act 5, with plenty of detractors and supporters on both sides passionately clashing to defend their favorite characters — and just as many shipping the two in hate-fueled Kismessitude relationships.

Gamzee revives the character conflict between these two — but without any of the fandom-fuel romantic tension. Just misery and self-loathing with no catharsis, a disappointing outcome for any fan invested in seeing their conflict reach any kind of resolution.




Gamzee making Fefeta, Erisol and Arquis leads to Fefeta’s explosion when the other two start fighting over her — Inviting destruction through Confusion/Rage.

Nepeta and Feferi — — two characters the fandom often criticizes the comic for abandoning — are brought back, but their union leaves them a running gag where the fandom gets to hear all about the cool and helpful stuff they’re up to, but without ever actually seeing either girl talk again. Fueling the fandom’s bitterness over their irrelevance.



And Tavrisprite’s creation eventually causes Vriska and Tavros to get into a relationship together, extending the fandom’s furious debate about their unhealthy, abusive dynamic long past the deaths of both characters, when we thought we’d seen the end of both arcs.






And the creation of Arquisprite, of course, is a necessary part of the script that eventually leads to Caliborn, Arquis, and half of Gamzee’s corpse being destroyed and merged inside the Lil Cal doll, bringing about the birth of Lord English.


Don’t believe me? Does this sound too thought out for Hussie, just a bit too far-fetched? That’s fine, I feel you. I understand. Just keep in mind that Doubt itself is also linked to the Rage Aspect. Our skepticism is already written into the story.

To me, it now seems that Gamzee’s story is not that he was lying or pretending during his kind phase, or that he’s a helpless victim of mind control, but rather that he’s coerced through his own intense convictions into accepting a deep sense of tragicomic fatalism.

This distances him from his friends, as he can no longer see them as anything more than falsehoods to be obliterated and punished by the self-evident power of his One True God. We don’t know exactly how Gamzee feels about this, beyond the fact that he’s accepted it.

But it brings up an interesting question that puts a new light on the half of a Gamzee corpse that remains after the end of the Masterpiece, and the creation of Lord English.


It’s true that LE is the overbearing truth of Homestuck, the comic. But there are deeper truths than those that are immediately apparent from observing physical reality — such as the inevitability that all tyrants eventually fall, just as Lord English has at the end of Act 7.



And the paradise planet that Gamzee so passionately believed in early in life, the one he wanted to share with his friends and at least one boy he had romantic feelings for — it actually exists. Earth C is just that sort of paradise planet.



Only half of Gamzee went into Lord English, so he still technically has a corpse available. Jane could, hypothetically, use her life-restoring powers to bring Gamzee back from death’s doorstep — only he would now be custody of our Heroes, with his God either dead or sealed in a black hole for eternity.

If that were to happen, and if there’s any truth to this reading of Gamzee, then what would the Bard of Rage make of this truth beyond truth, this promised land he would find himself in on the other side of an endlessly dark reality?

It’s enough to make me curious, personally. Although my personal suspicion is that if he gets the opportunity, whatever he does, it’s going to manage to piss us off. It’s inevitable, because seriously…Fuck that guy.

this is possibly a question that was fandom-solved in the prime days of the HS fandom, but what are yr opinions on the ghost-realm in a sort of conceptual-sense? By that i mean, since the ghosts we see in the dream bubbles are offshoots of the alpha timeline (e.g. god-tier alts of the trolls), is there a hypothetical alternate-alternate world where the conditions that rolled the troll-verse are different? Is the ghostrealm conditional to the universe that spawned it, or is it truly infinite?

the ghost stuff has definitely not been solved, per se–a lot of the legacy fandom would probably say hussie phoned it in there for various reasons, though I would definitely not agree.

To answer your questions:

Is the ghostrealm conditional to the universe that spawned it, or is it truly infinite?

The furthest ring–the black void surrounding all Sessions and Universes–is truly infinite. The eldritch horrorterrors that inhabit it are also infinite, since they’re part of Sburb’s design.

image
image

The dream bubbles, and the ghosts that inhabit them, however, are conditional to the universes that spawned them. The horrorterrors glub up those bubbles, but as far as we know, they don’t do so for every session.

image

They glub up the afterlife for our Heroes thanks to the influence of Feferi Peixes-the Witch of Life. She was actually raised by a horrorterror as her familiar, and is able to commune with the gods to request they establish the bubbles.

You could read this as Feferi changing the nature of Life in Homestuck, granting everyone who perishes a sort of second life in a weird limbo of half-existence.

Later parts of the story suggest that the horrorterrors were manipulating Feferi and all of the ghosts of the afterlife to protect themselves from Lord English, and to serve their mysterious goals by both A) Ensuring Lord English’s destruction and B) Enabling his creation in the first place.

Which brings us to…

is there a hypothetical alternate-alternate world where the conditions that rolled the troll-verse are different?

No, definitely not. That scenario is theoretically possible for other species elsewhere in PS, but not for trolls–or humans, for that matter.

We’re not sure what the limits are on variations of existence and choice in Paradox Space, but Aranea tells us there are some, and goes into some of the philosophical problems that come with the admittedly attractive idea that there might not be any:

image

But really, the problem is logistical.  Having even potentially infinite variations of a particular universe isn’t necessarily impossible in Paradox Space, but it is impossible for the worlds and characters trapped in Homestuck.
Because of Lord English.

image

Aranea gives us this little spiel about how the choices and possibilities available to everyone in Paradox Space are limited by the fact that PS itself is using the characters to propagate its own existence. Only choices and scenarios that allow reality to exist and continue to propagate are allowed to flourish.

And by the very nature of his existence, Lord English traps every universe and person we see in the comic in existential stasis. He’s a notable influence in the Alpha Trolls’ session through Kurloz, Damara and Cronus, and he’s THE reason Alternia exists as it does and the Beta trolls are who they are.

He made trolls what they are, so their reality can’t actually exist unless he exists,
and if trolls existed in any other way they wouldn’t create and interact with the humans the way they do, meaning the humans wouldn’t eventually create LE, meaning trolls wouldn’t have existed in the first place.

It’s a grandfather paradox, but on a cosmic scale. Trollkind may be able to exist in varied ways from Earth C,’s Troll Kingdom onwards, which is now free of the influence of Lord English. But its origins–and those of humanity–are forever entangled with Lord English. Them’s the br8ks.

Had a thought about “castes are pushed towards an Aspect by society” that I hadn’t heard anybody mention yet. Need to find the page, but I think it was once implied that Doc Scratch influenced troll society to be as brutal as it was, at least partly, to ensure the Alternian trolls would be better prepared for Sgrub then the Beforus trolls. Going further from that, setting thing up so all Rustbloods are inclined towards Time, just so that Aradia would be, sounds like some Doc Scratch BS to me.

Yeah, I agree with you completely! A friend of mine actually voiced this idea to me in private and it won me over basically instantly. It plays into the crony capitalist/mob boss vibe LE and Scratch have going on.

Lord English as a Manifestation of Trauma: An Alternate Reading

betweengenesisfrogs:

[This is an excerpt from a longer post, but I think it can stand on its own. It’s based on blogger mmmmalo/Malo’s idea of Homestuck characters as Manifestations of the protagonists’ psychology and trauma. Malo argues that Lord English is a reflection of Jade’s hidden trauma; below, I present a different approach.

Content warning for discussion of neglect, abuse, CSA, suicide, assault, and general
trauma.]

As I understand it, Manifestations Theory posits:

New characters, events, and problems introduced in Homestuck come into being as symbolic echoes (manifestations) of the psychology of the original four characters. Further characters also emerge as manifestations of those new characters, and so on. This is especially true of the interaction between the kids and the trolls, but also of other figures like the Midnight Crew, the Dancestors, and Lord English.

I really dig this way of reading Homestuck! It often leads to really interesting results. I think it makes a great deal of sense in terms of how Hussie writes his characters as echoes or riffs on previous characters.

It also could be very literally true in terms of how Paradox Space works. revolutionaryduelist has written about reality as an extension of everyone’s will and agency in Homestuck, and TexTalks has pointed out that ideas like Light and Space and other Platonic Forms are literally what make up the building blocks of all things in Homestuck’s metaphysics.

I could very easily see a Paradox Space which provides its players with beings and events that echo their own psychology. In which the challenge for SBURB players, in very Gnostic fashion, is to face the reflections of their own selves in order to find their own identity within their concerns and fears. That’s awesome!

That said, my reading of the origin of Lord English as a psychological Manifestation differs significantly from Malo’s.

What I find very striking about Lord English is that he’s an amalgamation. He’s a fusion of Caliborn + Lil’ Hal (AR) + Equius + Half of Gamzee.
That’s incredibly resonant, because if there’s one thing it makes sense
for the villain to be in Homestuck, it’s a collision of overlapping
symbols, like everything else that drives its story. And a mess of
overlapping symbols is also perfect as an expression of psychological
problems.

Here’s the reading I’ve been playing around with:

Lord
English is the manifestation of the collective traumas, repressions,
and psychological issues of the initial protagonists of Homestuck.

Keep reading

Oooh my god, I love this. I never quite linked LE to trauma or any given character’s psychological issues, and I certainly never considered attempting to pair the Betas with respective components of LE.

I’m not super sure how sold I am on the link between Rose and Caliborn
(Scratch always struck me as more Hal than Caliborn myself; the twisted realization of Caliborn’s desire to be “Bros” with Dirk mingling with AR’s desire to emulate Dave by Serving others.) And I’m still mulling Jade over, too.

But that’s pretty much just me saying this take on LE is really interesting, and teases new light out of him as an antagonistic figure, so I hope we end up expanding on the concept more.

cold-and-blue-blooded replied to your post “look i am telling you, the ‘true’ sign thing is only in relation to…”

No the asker is right. The extended zodiac was made for the fans not the trolls or alternia. The 12 trolls didn’t impact Alternia from the very beginning what are you talking about? That’s just their time line for the sburb game. There are TONS of time lines where the players are the gods of their own world. Lmfao these twelve trolls are NOT the only session to succeed.

The Alternian’s sburb game literally ends the Alternian empire, as a society. And there are no other timelines where other players play Sburb, not on Alternia.
The trolls don’t distribute the game code Sollux produces.

Not that it would matter. The trolls have to play so they can play their parts to eventually create Lord English. If Lord English doesn’t exist, Alternia doesn’t exist, so anyone else playing or winning would just be in a doomed timeline–they shouldn’t exist in the first place.

Alternian history is built around the fixed points in time required to bring LE, and thus Alternia itself, into existence. Lord English contains Equius and Gamzee, as does Doc Scratch, and their experiences and memories are the primary sources DS would have when setting up Alternian society in the first place.

That’s what I mean when I say they impacted Alternia from the very beginning. All of DS’ decisions on Alternia happened with them in mind, and drawn at least partly from his components’ former memories of them.

Time and the Alpha

arrghus:

So here’s a thing about Time that I’ve been thinking about but I don’t know exactly how to put. Heroes of Time in Homestuck all exist fundemantelly entangled with the Alpha timeline, and in the case of the two ‘good guy’ heroes, Dave and Aradia, are positioned as a sort of caretakers for it, driven to maintain the existence of the alpha in order to protect their friends. And they do this in their own idiosyncratic ways, Dave threading together an intricate tapestry of careful loops and Aradia just kinda save-scumming whenever anything goes wrong. The way they interact with the Alpha says a lot about them as people, it is a key part of defining who they are, to the point that Time itself in many ways seems to be About the nature of the Alpha, a natural feature of reality.

But there’s hints the Alpha is synthetic, a construct of Lord English. OptimisticDuelist says it better than I do, but there’s precious little of his writings on the topic publicly available. https://medium.com/@RoseOfNobility/apotheosis-and-creation-myth-2257d7bf5854 will have to suffice for now.

So where does that leave us, vis-a-vis the fundamental nature of Time? What is the Aspect, exactly, absent the influence of this immortal demon? Is there an Aspect at all absent his power? Certainly, both Dave’s and Aradia’s arcs involve overcoming symbolic representations of LE and the Alpha, Dave by coming to terms with his abusive childhood, tightly linked to the presence of Lil Cal, who is actually Lord English, and Aradia perhaps more symbolically by overcoming her death and largely leaving the Alpha-defined story entirely thousands of pages before the rest of the main cast manages to. And, of course, Damara, more of a failed hero of Time, is in many ways defined by her allegiance to LE, and her desire to see him hurt her former friends, while Caliborn, well, I don’t think I need to explain how Caliborn relates to Lord English.

But, well, I’ve gotten a couple questions from people making, like, fan characters or defining themselves in terms of the Aspects (and where the line between those things goes I do not know nor particularly care) about what the nature of Time is, and, uh, this is part of why it’s tricky to answer. Lord English is a dominating influence upon the story of Homestuck, but in terms of Paradox Space as a whole, that vast, nebulous existence of countless other stories to tell using the same basic mechanics? In terms of the Classpect system as used separately from Homestuck itself, to label fictional characters or even yourself? I’m not entirely sure how to position Lord English and his themes and nature in relation to Tumblr user Anonymous asking me about what it means for them, specifically, to be a Seer of Time. Like, where do you go with that?

Maybe it’ll get clearer for me in time, I feel like it kinda did already just writing this.