Tag: Pa

Someone made a post about how Joey and Jude may not actually die when sburb happens. Was it you? (And if so, can you please link that post?)

seems likely other people have talked about it besides me, but i have certainly done a video or two on that subject since I literally don’t think theres any chance they’ll actually die permanently at all:

This is on how I think the likeliest scenario is that Hiveswap’s heroes will escape to Earth C in the end, probably bringing most or all of these doomed trolls with them.

This one is on why I think its likely that Pa/Grandpa set things up to save Joey and Jude, or enable them to do…something? that would “Save the world”.

Simply put, I think the idea of Hiveswap having a tragic ending is antithetical to Homestuck and Hiveswap’s themes, and allowing them such a fate runs completely counter to Grandpa’s character. It’s easy to get lose it in the weeds because of what a shitty dad he is, but we’re still dealing with a genuine Hero, here, even if he’s a tragic one.

Hey, chums! In this episode of Hiveswap lore, we take in the lives and times of Joey Claire’s absentee father, Jake Harley! Doing so gives us some insight on why this man abandoned his kids, and what the future looks like for both of them.

Soon, we’ll ask deeper questions as we learn about Pa’s evil stepmother, the alien girl Pa remembers as a deer, the mysterious prophecy Joey and Jude may or may not be subject to, and how all of these might relate to the cult Jude sees across the yard–and the clowns Joey sees at school. Stay tuned.

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hey i’ve been rereading Act 4 and noticed something weird. Grandpa Harley landed on Earth on April 21, 1910. if i remember correctly, Joey is 14 in Hiveswap in 1994. So then, if she was born in 1980, doesn’t that mean Grandpa was already like 69-70 at the time. I mean, i know guys can still have kids at that age, but still. so was A. Claire significantly younger than him, or is something fishy going on? (haha “fishy” meenah would be so pleased)

She could be significantly younger–tbh I’m not even clear on A. Claire’s timeline at all–or it could be Hiveswap being a fantasy story and not caring about stuff like menopause, or it could be hiveswap being a fantasy story and having perfectly functional forms of procreation that work regardless of age, like ectobiology.

I’m not sure why anyone is assuming these kids were born without ectobiology, honestly? Like…Pa is the dude who runs skaianet…ectobiology is kind of a big deal w/ this crowd. It’s not an area i’ve found myself wanting to speculate on much, but ectobiology is definitely the likeliest explanation for how they were born, just, statistically

That post is so good!!! I can see someone who wrote for hiveswap reading that and being shocked by your accuracy. My only thing is, wouldn’t Pa who grew up with a Jane find it kinda incestuous to marry and procreate with another Jane? (I know they’re not related but I imagine the adoptive relation would be enough to gross someone out. Unless you’re postulating that A. Claire is very very different from Jane?)

A.Claire would be a completely different person than Jane, since she’s shaped by totally different experiences and Jane, as a Maid of Life, is uniquely defined BY her life experiences–I’ve written about my interpretation of Jane in this regard here. 

If this were true, then it would be Homestuck’s most ambitious and intense exploration of the questions of Nature vs. Nurture it’s explored continually so far, maybe even moreso than the difference between Bro and Dirk. 

That’s another reason I like the idea, given that the Alpha session is, in its broad strokes, heavily crafted by the extreme impact of either Dirk or Jane, who trade off absolute control of the session back and forth, but through proxies. AR (NOT Dirk) is in complete control of the narrative Pre-Entry, and Post-Entry Jane ends up dominating the whole session first through Trickster Mode and then through Crockertier–both times without her full agency. I only point this out to note that Dirk and Jane have always existed as extreme parallels of one another. 

So just as Bro seems to be influenced by Lil Cal to a great degree, I’d be interested in seeing a version of Jane who is fully subject to the Heiress role the Empress has always wanted to impose onto Jane, and which proved incredibly toxic to her in her Alpha timeline. Let me be clear: I think A.Claire is an absolutely heroic figure. I also think that about Grandpa, though–I just regard him as a hero with a tragic flaw, in the greek sense. 

I wouldn’t be shocked if A.Claire had a similar issue she never overcame, since that’s kind of the Thing with the Alphas, and though Jake and Jane undoubtedly love each other I don’t think they worked out their issues. If they had, I don’t think Roxy would have been so lacking for support, and if Jake had solved his problems through his relationship with A.Claire, I kind of doubt he’d have run away from the kids. 

But I digress. I don’t think Pa would find it incestuous because, for one thing, there’s no indication he would know. Pa was apparently a big fan of A.Claire’s. That’s unsurprising, given his at least subconcious affinity for his old friends. But he’d have no way to know about that or ask her about it before they actually became close. So basically I don’t think it’s something that would occur to him? 

bad parent

dailyjake-english:

image

yea i gotta say while i’ve been delighted to see Grandpa and Mom rightfully get the more critical views they’ve deserved, it’s kinda weird that thats carried over to Jake?

Like people conflate alternate identities for these characters way too much. Dirk and Jake are better people as a -direct result- of their relationships with each other and the girls, and Bro and Pa are conversely worse -directly because- of their isolation.

Homestuck’s themes have always been about flawed people growing and improving through their bonds with each other, not with any one person being Intrinsically Bad or Good. Get some nuance???

There’s something I’ve been thinking: We once debated whether or not Grandpa Harley was living an awesome life or not – I said yes, you said no because you felt he was trying to fill the void of a reality without Dirk in it, his (in some sense literal) soul mate. But I feel like this throws A. Claire under the bus. Rather than being a guy whose a shitty person because Dirk isn’t in his life – maybe he’s just shitty because his wife died and he never got over it. He wouldn’t be the first. 1/2

2/3 I mean A. Claire affects the narrative indirectly, being The Dead Mom trope, but it really stands out to me the way we let our knowledge of the alpha universe affect our understanding of the Beta. A. Claire is one of the few human ‘things’ in Homestuck to have no counterpart in the Alpha timeline that we are aware Jake is aware of. Joey and Jude never drew breath on Alpha Earth. A. Claire and J&J fundamentally separate Jake English and Jake Harley into two utterly different individuals 2/3

¾ Which is why I still have to disagree that the Beta Guardians are de-facto the ‘incomplete’ versions of the Alpha kids, unable to ever reach their true potential – because where does that leave the life that Jake built with A. Claire? Even now Grandpa remains the outlier among the Guardians – from my standpoint I can’t but see him as a man who couldn’t handle the loss of his wife, for who his children were the most painful reminder. So he runs – again and again and again and again 3/4 

4/4 (Sorry this is all splintered like this, Asks suck). None of this condones him being a shitty parent, but it does change the context in which we can view JE and JH as mirrors. I’d love to know what JH was like as a husband to A – kind, carrying, attentive, devoted? Maybe he wasn’t, and your original argument stands – the absence of his alpha friends ultimately stunts him as a person. But maybe when A was still around this ceased to be true – but once she was gone, he fell apart again.

 

I mean, my main post was never that Jake was shitty because of a lack of Dirk specifically. Jake Harley struggles with the exact same issues that detonate all of Jake English’s relationships with his friends growing up. Toxic masculinity, heteronormative ideology, and most clearly, escapism and neglect of those he cares about because of fear of confrontation. 

It is through his relationship with all his friends–Dirk, Jane, Roxy, and others–that Jake manages to learn to get over those issues.
All we can say for sure about Jake Harley, then, is that he most definitely does not overcome his neglect and escapism habits by the end of his life the way English does. 

MAYBE he made progress with A. Claire on that front? It’s definitely not impossible. But we just don’t know, and in the meantime he continues hoarding behavior that suggests his alternate friends are very much still a part of his psyche. It’s also possible A. Claire was his partner in uncovering the secrets of Lord English and Sburb, given that she apparently painted Joey’s mural of a Green Star–in other words, the Green Sun–and was the original owner of the Cherub Key.  

I certainly agree that Jude and Joey are unique, though, and A. Claire won me over hard enough that I would be happy to know she was at least a genuine comfort to Jake if he was struggling. I honestly don’t know what their relationship was like either–but I’m very curious. 

I’m starting to get super serious about thinking that the guardian versions of all the kids are like, the worst possible versions of themselves like. Bro: awful. Mom: not great! popop crocker: complicit in the condesce’s whatevers probably. alpha rose: left her daughter a whole house full of booze. jane and dave? probably something. and while grandpa was always WEIRD, now he’s got NEGLECTFUL PIECE OF SHIT TO HIS OTHER KIDS added onto that so like. worst versions or worst versions y/n?

Grandpa was always kind of a neglectful piece of shit–he let Jade play with loaded guns. To be clear, I think its likely Grandpa very much does care for Joey and Jude, and he probably maneuvered the portal and other events to ensure they’d somehow escape their certain doom on earth. Let’s not forget this man is preparing for what he knows full well is the apocalypse, as is MOM.

Which isn’t to say that Joey’s anger isnt justified. Pa is still a shitty guardian. But that isn’t news, and it doesnt mean that Grandpa is now unambiguously terrible in all things. He’s probably responsible for saving vast swathes of humanity through sburb, and he orchestrated the salvation of the Beta kids at the very least. Odds are, he’s done the same for Jude and Joey.

But there’s a measure of truth in your idea, especially about the Alphas–l felt the same about the Betas until literally today when I had a conversation that made me reconsider a bit, so I’m mulling them over.

But like. The Beta Guardians have always demonstrated how much the Alpha kids love and need each other. They are terrible, non-functional, broken people by themselves. The only SORT OF exception is Jane/Nanna, but even she lives a life that leaves her unfulfilled and unsatisfied by her own choice to limit her impact and potential, which is why Nanna is so moved to know about Alpha Jane’s potential. 

Except for possibly Bro, who has been corrupted by Cal to some extent so I’m not sure what his state of mind is exactly, the Guardians and Alpha Kids all have an recurring motif of caring and loving desperately intensely, and none of their care and love helps them be good people to those they care about, because love only goes so far if you don’t learn to communicate and do the hard work of connecting. 

The Guardians show us the miserable, tragic extremes that those self-destructive habits lead them to. The Alpha Kids manage to rise above them and grow and improve as people through their connections to each other. That’s what matters to me.

So I guess what I’m saying is I kinda agree but I really don’t want us to swing to regarding Grandpa as like, Basically Evil now. It’s not that simple. Joey’s anger is righteous and I ate it up forever and she deserves her bitterness, but her perspective is also limited. We’ll probably learn more about Grandpa along Hiveswap and Hauntswitch along those lines, which’ll be an interesting ride.