With the extended zodiac, we learn that hope can deal with morals and what the player views as right and wrong, so with kankri and his obsession with social justice, does that mean he was role playing a hope player and that’s why he wasn’t getting seer of blood visions??

ao3sburbanite:

revolutionaryduelist:

Nah his stuff parses as pretty Blood oriented to me. He’s super concerned with the relationships enforced by society and how they enact violence/lack of choice on each other. That’s all blood stuff.

Hope is highly idealistic, it’s rooted in the imaginary and abstract. Kankri isn’t focusing on abstract ideals, he’s focusing on the material power dynamics he observed in the physical world of beforus.

That doesn’t mean he’s right or accurately assessing/prioritizing what he sees in that world, though. Just that that’s what he’s focusing.

There’s usually an explicit or implied source of influence when a player roleplays, like an ancestor figure or societal norms with the castes. I don’t think kankris implied to have anything like that other than his karmic connection to the sufferer/Karkat.

I DO think he’s drawn to/lightly exhibits some typically Knightly traits–he views himself as being of service to others, and wants to take people under his wing. apprentice them, basically, as knights seem rather inclined to do.

P sure Porrim even asks Karkat if he’s interested in what Kankri is “serving” at one point. So I do think he’s hampered by roleplaying, I just don’t think it’s got much to do with hope.

Kankri isn’t ignoring the blood part of his class, but the Seer part. Just look at how often he talks with his eyes closed. He chooses to live in the tumblr-esque fantasy world of fictitious/irrelevant problems rather than see the actual ones in front of him (the team falling apart, Porrim’s legit social justice concerns).

I think this is a great example of a person not embracing or working with their class at all. Much in the same way Rose embraces blind rage to go grimdark or Terezi had her vision restored and lost her sense of self, Kankri seems to be stuck or arrested in his development as a seer. He didn’t respond to the challenges of SGRUB because he’d never had to DO anything before, he could just pontificate ad nauseam. Also, he’s an idiot.

On a serious note, I wonder if questioning their vision/learning to trust themselves is a trial all seers must go through. It certainly seems that way from the seers we have examples of.

Pretty much exactly this, I agree. And re: seers’ recurring challenge, I’m inclined to agree! I haven’t nailed this down to any 1:1 canonical basis in a way i feel super comfortable arguing for, but it seems to me that the classes have a looot of resonance with Carol S. Pearson’s 12 heroic archetypes

Check out the description for the Sage, which seems to me like a pretty close match for Seers and Mages both, if Seers a bit moreso:

In particular:

And:

So If mages or more adept in miracles, how does that work with every aspect ? How does one perform a miracle with light or with rage? What range does the word “miracle” entail ?

I tried to express this point back in the Force & Flow essays, but I’m not sure I succeded, so I’m glad for the chance to revisit it! I think I can answer your first question with the second. The range of a “miracle” is essentially the same as the range of “magic”, a concept that canonically applies to Heirs, Witches, Maids and Sylphs.

Jesus’ story is imported into Homestuck in the story of the Signless–a Seer.
When Jesus comes up, John describes him as magic–just as he later describes himself, Jade, and Rose in the midst of her Witch roleplay. (And yes, this does mean the Jegus meme had a payoff in the form of classpect exposition.)

Later on, Rose seems to more or less figure out how to roleplay a wizard. But when Dave thinks to ask, she makes it clear what she’s doing isn’t exactly casting spells in the typical sense.

Which makes sense, because Prophets aren’t typically thought of as being magic per se. If you think about it, the miracles Jesus performs aren’t really that different from what we might imagine wizards could do.

What makes them different is a matter of emphasis. Wizards are regularly linked to knowledge, just like prophets are. Hence the concept of the “wizard’s spellbook”. But for magicians, knowledge is typically a means to an end, it’s an answer to “how” the magic is performed.

Prophets also do magic, but for them the emphasis is on the knowledge itself as opposed to the spellbook. A Prophet like Jesus or Moses would typically claim their magic wouldn’t happen at all, but for their faith in and knowledge of their divine Source–God.

Just trade in the figure of “God” for the Seer/Mage’s Aspect (the Aspects are inherently divine-coded anyway, given that they’re basically Aeons), and there you go. Any kind of magic you can think of a Prophet doing through their Aspect is something I believe reasonably falls under their purview.

I’d simply put just as much of an emphasis on what the Prophet might end up saying as a result of their Aspect’s influence, which is probably even more interesting. Do their prophecies concern/affect/benefit primarily themselves or others? How does their Aspect influence what message they have to give, and how they deliver it?

A particular nuance to the pair might be a penchant for resurrections/raising others from the dead, particularly in ways that might otherwise seem impossible. Sollux pulls this off for himself by half-ghosting, while Terezi pulls it off for Vriska by guiding John’s choices.

Does this answer your question, anon? It’s a pretty dang good one, btw.

pencilkind-specibus:

definitely-not-lordenglish:

hypeswap:

every maid and sylph in homestuck resurrected from a death that they should not have been able to revive from

aradia: dream self/god tier
kanaya: rainbow drinker
jane: dream self lifey thing
aranea: ring of life
porrim: rainbow drinker [i’m making an assumption about how she originally awakened her vampire powers, but i think it’s probable that she matches the pattern]

Huh…

@revolutionaryduelist

@creative-classpect

Just as interesting, all of them transform-usually as a result of that ressurection–into more ethereal or imaginary-coded sorts of beings. Porrim and Kanaya become vampires, Aradia becomes a spooky ghost, Aranea becomes a true immortal.

Jane doesn’t transform as a result of her death (being a Life player gives her some more grounded but still very intense connotations, I feel), but she eventually becomes more ethereal and otherworldy when becoming a Trickster.
This association with becoming imaginary/fantastical beings is p interesting, given that both classes are linked to fairies.

Seers and Mages also have links to impossible resurrections. Terezi, a Passive player, orchestrates the revival of Vriska. Sollux somehow skirts the edge of death by ending up a Half-Ghost.

The focus here seems to be on miracles rather than solely ressurection–Rose performs a similarly impossible feat by guiding everyone through the Void–but the association with historical Prophets’ habit of reviving others/themselves is interesting, especially since it lacks the imaginary being/fairy connotation.

How important are Seers in reality? I’ve gotten in discussions where many people agree that Seers are pretty much useless and powerless

arrghus:

Rose Lalonde killed an ogre armed with nothing but a pair of ordinary knitting needles pretty much immediately after entering the game. Rose Lalonde found the secrets of the Green Sun and of the Scratch, forming the foundations for the kids’ entire plans in Act 5. Rose Lalonde found love on a battlefield and her hands have wielded both darkness and light and turned them into deadly weapons. Rose Lalonde, trapped with her friends in the middle of literal nowhere with a demon dog hot on their heels, nevertheless found a way to not only escape, but to journey to a new, wondrous land. Rose Lalonde knows more about the setting than maybe anyone else, and the tome of her collective knowledge inspired Calliope, arguably the most important character in Homestuck, to believe in the potential of reality.

Rose Lalonde is utterly fucking dwarfed by Terezi Pyrope, the girl who can sunder time by asking a question, who can know with absolute certainty the immediate outcome of a difficult decision. Terezi Pyrope, the girl so dangerous, Lord English sent his right hand Makara on making sure she was kept off balance through mind games and caliginy. Terezi Pyrope, who is so wise in the ways of the world that she can understand and manipulate people so well she’s repeatedly stated as the superior of Vriska, who is literally a telepath. Terezi Pyrope, who fights alongside gods and not only matches them in prowess but outclasses some of them (Dirk had some serious trouble in that fight). Terezi Pyrope, trapped and surrounded by dead friends in an offshoot reality in the middle of temporal nowhere, who found a way to turn game over into an easy victory by writing words on a scarf. Terezi Pyrope, who absorbed all the memories of Paradox Space and knew the world for what it truly was. Terezi Pyrope, the true protagonist of Homestuck.

And then there’s Kankri I guess? Yeah, he’s kinda useless, trapped in his own head and incapable of seeing and wielding his true potential. His alt-self led a revolution, which went surprisingly well up until it completely failed because the odds were stacked against him in a truly preposterous fashion. Not his fault really.

What’s your ideas on Joey’s possible class? I think she’s a likely Maid of Light. I don’t have any screenshots, but I remember her saying she’s “not [dammek’s] maid” a few times, and also her saying that she’s not “made of time”. Also, her turning on the lights in her house and turning on the power in Dammek’s hive i think can be interpreted as her “creating Light”.

I agree. I have a few reasons to add “creating Light” as a reason for Joey, and I remember the Maid reference you’re talking about. It’s still SOMEWHAT possible she’s another class–I saw one reference to destruction, but she doesn’t feel like a Prince so I’m still leaning on Maid. But she’s definitely a Light player imo.

I need to get screenshots to make a whole post about it, but my classpect thoughts on the others are:

Xefros is absolutely a Page of Time. There were a fuckload of references to him as a Page already and at least one to Time, which are most of what I’ve got to compile.

Jude is PROBABLY a Seer of Doom. All of his knowledge ends up benefiting or acting through Joey, and she makes explicit reference to being impressed he actually *Knows* his stuff, with respect to all these threats and rogue conspirators he’s predicting. Of course, its still pretty early and there wasnt anything explicit there, so it’s still somewhat up in the air.

Dammek strikes me as a Thief of Breath. Not completely sure on the Thief part–all I have to go on is the fact that he’s so driven and the occasional references to him taking Xefros’ stuff. His passion for communism/non-ownership certainly sounds like “stealing” through “freedom/disattachment” to me for his own benefit, after all. So that’s my rationale there.

But SPECIFICALLY Dammek definitely seems like a Breath player, because he’s strongly referenced as having a talent for leadership and motivating/driving people–providing direction. The fact that Xefros’ classpect matches Aradia’s–Time doesn’t hurt, as Dammek’s analogue would Tavros, the Breath player.

On top of that, it sets up a somewhat interesting inverse dynamic to the relationship we saw between Vriska/Aradia/Tavros.
Where Homestuck’s cycle of revenge began with a Maid of Time getting revenge on a Thief of Light for the abuse of a Page of Breath, Hiveswap’s plot seems to begin with a Maid of Light beginning to heal the withered sense of importance of a Page of Time at the hands of a Thief of Breath.

Not entirely sure if this reading will hold up, of course. But The Dancestors demonstrated an affinity for this kind of karmic role switching, and Scratch seems to be managing the events of this story, to an extent–just as he managed the cycle of revenge. So it wouldn’t surprise me if it pans out.

Counterpoint to your active/passive mage/seer argument. I see seers as active because they seek out the knowledge themselves. Mages have the knowledge happen to them. Sollux doesn’t choose to gain that knowledge, he gains it passively (ie without specific intent to) through his experiences and situations. Seers seek the knowledge they want. Thoughts?

If the classes are specifically about knowledge and gaining knowledge then the important part is HOW they gain the knowledge, not what they do with it. In my opinion, at the very least

The issue is that the classes are flexible enough that it seems to me they both do it both ways. Sollux doesn’t choose to have visions of death, sure, but he does willingly learn (and prides himself on) skills as a hacker. Meulin DEFINITELY seeks out information linked to romance and emotions in the dreambubbles, and information about the Sufferer in Alternia.

More tellingly, though, there’s definitely times when the Seers gain information without seeking it out, too. Big examples include Rose having a bunch of memories dumped on her when Dream Rose merges with her from the Davesprite timeline, and Terezi’s [S] Remem8er moment, which she didn’t really seem to be in direct control of.

So yeah, it seems to me both classes engage with their Aspect both passively and actively at times. I do think what they do with it is just as important as how they get their information, too–it’s a mix of both things, as well as the way players relate to others in general. I don’t think there’s a cut and dry way to single out a particular factor as More Important, which means the most important thing in my opinion is habits over the player’s whole narrative, and who directly tends to benefit from the Player’s actions–the player themselves, or others around them?

So yeah, there’s no hard rules in this stuff I don’t think. Just a lot of predilections and average tendencies, if that makes any sense.

On a reread i noticed something that may be true about seers, based on a conversation betweent terezi and rose in act 4: they are more cognizant of their exiles. They both say that they hear them, rather than characters like john mistaking the commands for their own thoughts

Yup! Sollux also immediately recognizes his Exile as an outside voice come to think of it, although he conflates it with another voice of the damned and rejects it’s direction intensely.

Sweet catch!

Force and Flow — Know and Change – optimisticDuelist – Medium

Here’s the last one of this Classpect essay series! This is on the Know and Change pair, the quartet of classes closest to the Spectrum:

Mage and Seer & Heir and Witch

Coming soon will be:

More Homestuck Explained videos, covering Homestuck’s core themes from beginning to end
Writing about Jane Crocker, Davekat, the Alpha Timeline… .
Hiveswap lore and analysis, linking the game to Hiveswap once it comes out and probably handing streams and such if all goes well!
And more stuff as I think of it, too. Really, figuring out the Classpect system made me realize we’ve only scratched the surface of Homestuck (it keeps happening), and this is only the beginning of a new extreme.

If you can spare me a buck a month you can help me make all this content and, like, not die and stuff– and get your hands on it earlier, too! Higher reward tiers will let you invite friends to the Discord so they can access this stuff and talk about it, too!

Feel free to @ me, reblog or send me an ask with your thoughts on these first two essays. There may be some things I can’t answer as they will be answered in later posts, but I might use those as inspiration for what teasers to release from sections of the next two essays over the course of the week.

You can also feel free to talk to me in the Hiveswap Discord where I moderate and cry about Homestuck. I’m very interested in seeing how my thoughts stand up to scrutiny, so don’t be shy!

[Patreon] [Hiveswap Discord]

[Active/Passive Masterpost] [Destroy and Create] [Serve and Steal]

Force and Flow — Know and Change – optimisticDuelist – Medium