I’ll get to classpect meta later but honestly this is so important
Daraya’s path put Jadebloods into much sharper focus as a caste subject to incredibly strict control and norms of behavior. Specifically, norms concerning romantic and intimate interest in other trolls, where young, fleeting relationships might be allowed but consummated, long-lasting adult relationships are explicitly illegal.
This puts Kanaya’s early struggles with romance into some really compelling context. Of course she’s more interested in those “More Daring” than her. Of course she’s compelled by people willing to break rules and flaunt convention and risk everything for what they want, like Vriska.
Who else could she dare to hope would be with her? As romantic and extremely into girls as she is, under ordinary circumstances, romance and love were an impossible dream for Kanaya. But by god…
Kanaya said “fuck that” and fucking got it anyway.
She ollied out of her entire universe and hooked up with the girl who wrote her favorite Gamefaqs entry. And then that girl led her through space and time and places where spacetime doesn’t EXIST to a blank slate planet. And then that girls’ Mom handed her the key to ensuring Kanaya’s entire SPECIES could live and love there freely, forever and ever and FUCKING ever after that, A MEN.
Kanaya loves girls so hard that it obliterated the cruel karmic punishment shoved onto her ENTIRE caste, and she’s FREE NOW, AND KISSING ROSE RIGHT THIS VERY MOMENT.
I don’t know the answer to this but I do know that whatever it is Rose and Dirk argue bitterly over it
rose enjoys hunchback, even the fucking gargoyles. dirk cannot let this stand
theres no fucking way rose enjoys those fucking abominable gargoyles. that nonsensical tonally dissonant garbage goes strictly in the dave wheelhouse. I will fight you
I will concede but I will also propose: dave starts talking about how great they are and rose, seeing dirk starting to open his mouth in longwinded protest, immediately jumps on the bandwagon just to see how mad he gets
I literally think the second dave was like oh yeah those gargoyles I love those guys dirk would open his mouth and swallow his entire tongue while meekly saying oh …….. oh yeah ……. me ……… too ………………………………… because he wants dave to like him so fucking badly and of course rose overhears this and immediately saunters up, chin in hands, oh really? tell me more, father. tell me more about how you just love the delightful antics of the most jarring and out of place so-called “sidekick” characters in all of disneydom. educate me, please. I especially am interested to know what value you believe the gargoyle wanting to fuck the goat brought to the film. rewind it, dave. let’s see that again
I don’t really think Jade is acting like a Seer at all. At least, I haven’t seen that referenced in the story so far. Roleplay is a way that players deviate from their native active/passive states, but it doesn’t seem to be the only way. Dreaming moons influence players to be more Active (in Derse’s case) or more Passive (in Prospit’s) on their own.
Jade *is* acting more Passive during that section of the story, but that’s explicitly due to her waking up early on Prospit, and Prospit’s Passive influence. I don’t really know that we need more of an explanation for her behavior there.
Similarly, I don’t really think Jade’s ability to see the future is dropped as an element of her character–it just stops being relevant as the timeline catches up to Jade and other characters start waking up.
Everything Jade does is, by Kanaya’s own admission, something Kanaya also does. So unless Seer roleplay is a thing all Space players default to early on (which I suppose is fairly possible–Skaia certainly qualifies as a divine influence), I don’t think that’s what’s up.
It’s important to note *why* I think Rose is roleplaying a Witch. It’s a byproduct of her interest in wizardry and an inability to really understand Mom’s true nature as a Rogue. She isn’t assigned the Witch roleplay from abstract, Skaian forces–she’s driven into it by her own confused admiration of her mom and desperate desire for power.
If Jade is roleplaying a Seer, I’d expect some similar impetus or drive or associated imagery from her. Along those lines, I think there’s *sort of* an argument Jade might be roleplaying a Page, though I kind of feel like Grandpa and Nanna’s relative absences mean there’s not a ton of ancestral influence from them. It’s hard to say.
Aaaaaaa I’m sorry I missed this Ask for ages, but yeah I completely agree! Kanaya links Rose’s behavior when drunk to a lot of concepts related to Void, too:
So on and so forth. Void and soporifics are pretty strongly intertwined!
This question hits upon a lot of nuances that I’m not sure about myself, so I want to be clear that I don’t have this system figured out by any means. I think it’s consistent enough now that it’s worth talking about, just because there’s so many cases built up, but I don’t understand everything about how it works and I don’t want anyone to regard me as being particularly In The Know, here.
I’m figuring this out as I go along with everyone! And tons of times stuff that other people say sets off a cascade of new startling revelations. This is at least a weekly occurence lately.
So first up, as to Jade:
It’s a possibility that Grimbark is just a joke/parody, so it’s hard to tell if this is just a joke/comment and she’s really only acting like a Witch. Which means I’m not sure, but if she’s roleplaying at all, I’d say her acting like a thief might be a solid bet. It’d mean she’s acting More Active than usual, which does line up with her behavior.
Gotta stress though: I don’t really know if this is a case where roleplay applies. Rose got way longer, so she’s under the cut.
As for Rose, I’d say: In my view, not exactly, with the caveat that I’m honestly not sure here either?
I think Rose is roleplaying as a Witch, and I think she’s doing so partly because she imagines her mom as a Witch (Rose’s inability to really understand Mom is a key part of their conflict, after all). But there’s two important nuances I’d like to clear up:
1) It’s important to understand that Rose trying to be a Witch doesn’t mean she’s not being a Seer! It’s easiest to understand Roleplay as the characters adding Verbs/Archetypal symbols to their behaviors, with their true classes as intrinsic verbs they can’t change.
So Vriska can try to Make stuff and gets associated with Fairy-dom. She can discard that behavior, eventually. But she can’t discard her instincts to Steal/Take things, nor the associated outlaw/pirate imagery.
The same applies to Rose. She’s still a Prophet, and in many cases her Witch behavior acts in service to her prophetic behavior (using magic to tear the prophetic text she wrote into the Void, for example.).
And as she’s also behaving more like an Active class, this also makes her more like an active Prophet. Indeed, Rose is also referenced as a Mage at least once.
I’m not sure what parts of this are actual references and what parts are me reading too much into things, though. I’m just saying the symbolism surrounding this stuff can get muddled, and I’m not enormously sure where the lines get drawn.
2) I don’t think she’s roleplaying a Witch of Void specifically. I think the Void stuff surrounding Rose is likely a side effect–the more she commits to the Witch persona, the more her powers manifest “in defiance of her true Aspect”. And in Homestuck, powers manifesting that way generally tend to default to manifesting as the “opposing” Aspect.
In other words: Rose is just roleplaying a Witch, and aspect switching is what happens with any case of roleplay that’s unhealthy enough. Aspect “inversion” just seems to be the default, when that does occur.
At least, that’s the way I usually feel.
But because of Xefros, Dammek, and Joey, I don’t really think that’s
necessarily the rule. So maybe the Void part is also Roxy’s influence
after all???
It wouldn’t quite be unprecedented. Hal–A Prince of Heart’s– emulation of Dave–A Knight of Time– includes him trying to take over the temporal logistics. So maybe that’s the case after all.
What I will say is that in one respect, it’s crucial to understand Rose as both a Witch of Light and a Witch of Void.
A Witch always has a Familiar, intrinsically linked to their Aspect:
And how succesful they are at self-actualization is linked to how well they take control of their lives from their Familiar, which will protect them, but also try to control them. Jade has Becquerel, a Space Familiar. Feferi has Gl’bolyb, a Life familiar.
In Damara’s case, that Familiar is literally a Patriarch–Lord English, an embodiment of Time itself. And unhappy, miserable, isolated Damara decides she wants to serve him completely.
That’s why the Damara God Tier in the final army against him is such a
big deal, because it means a version of her succeeded in rebelling
against her familiar and asserting her true feelings.
Rose, then, has two Witch familiars, who work together to manipulate her. Her familiars of Void are the Horrorterrors, of course. Interesting that to Feferi, Gl’bolyb is just a fact of life, a reality she has to deal with. To Rose, the horrorterrors represent the absolutely unknowable and unimaginable.
Her Familiar of Light is Doc Scratch. It’s easy enough to say the Cueball represents omniscient knowledge, information, and so Light. But Scratch’s light coding goes quite a bit deeper.
He’s also Rose’s literal Patriarch, since being Dirk’s clone, he is technically her uncle. So yeah, I think Rose’s relationship to Scratch and the Horrorterrors is more visceral and understandable that way, and I wouldn’t want that nuance to be lost because we’re still reading her exclusively as a Witch of Void.
There’s actually a LOT MORE nuance to Scratch’s presentation than I’m expressing here,(surprise! Scratch is also roleplaying!) but this post has to end sometime. So that’s it for now.
Everyone can feel free to send me whatever insights they have one way or another on either point, I just can’t say I have all the answers. I think I’m onto something here, but if I am we’re more than likely gonna uncover most of it together.
Well, it’s @rosemarymonth and I’ve wanted to talk about Rosemary and why I think the canon gets WAY too little credit with regards to their execution for ages so I may as well do it now.
Keep in mind, of course, that I am a dude and in no way want any wlw to feel I’m shutting down critiques of Homestuck’s flaws in this regard. I think that’s perfectly valid, this is just my reading. I’ll be interested in seeing what people have to say.
I don’t get to talk about Rosemary enough anyway, so I’ll also take you up on it and go over why I love Rosemary and why I think readings that they were “meant to be moirails” and “go ooc” is straight up just misreading the text, because the comic is actually pretty clear in broadcasting its intent.
The thing to keep in mind is that Homestuck’s entire plot follows one consistent rule: The message of AURYN from The Neverending Story, “Do what you will.”
The events in Homestuck that actually happen are by design the sum product of the wills of the entire cast, and how well characters express their wills on reality directly correlates to how “powerful” they are.
Caliborn is the villain because Lord English violates EVERYONE’s agency by confining them all to the plot of Homestuck/his Alpha Timeline. Within the confines of those prescribed paths, however, reality always defaults to fulfilling the wishes of all characters involved, or resolving the tension between them.
What this means PRACTICALLY is that almost every event that happens in the story, no matter how ridiculous….
is, on some level, foreshadowed by the desires of the characters, just as Arquius’ heroic sacrifice and absorption into LE is foreshadowed by the desires of both him and Caliborn:
Oh, and speaking about Caliborn wanting to be bros with Dirk and allowing him to die as if going to sleep:
All this in mind, let’s focus on Rose and Kanaya. No, I don’t get the impression they were ever going to be moirails. I’m not sure when Hussie decided on Rosemary, but I get the impression it was early, at least by the time Kanaya was introduced.
Why? Let’s take stock of both girls’ desires and conflicts throughout Act 5.
Kanaya’s early characterization revolved around A) A tendency to gravitate and pacify take-charge, forward individuals,
and B) A profound dissatisfaction with that role.
That’s what burned her out so hard when she was interested in Vriska. So I’m not sure why one would assume that actually, Kanaya’s True Destiny was to fall into… the exact same arrangement with Rose once again, despite expressly avoiding it. That doesn’t seem like good storytelling to me.
Especially since Rose is, from the very beginning, posited as an idealistic escape from that solitude for Kanaya. Kanaya is the receiver of Rose’s prophetic text—one of her earliest big contributions as a Seer of Light– and it makes a tremendous impact on her.
That impact is partly manifested as an out and out romantic fantasy about Rose, who Kanaya idealizes as the legendary leader of her session.
Kanaya’s fantasies about Rose in this regard play heavily into her attempted courtship through the Flighty Broads and their Snarky Horseshitometer sequence—and it is romantic courtship.
Kanaya makes that clear in the mission-critical text document where she positions herself as an antagonistic suitor to John, and that document is first referenced in… oh, mid-Act 4.
So Kanaya’s romantic interest suffuses the narrative from pretty early on. What about Rose?
Let’s talk about romance aesthetics. Pretty much every endgame ship in Homestuck is couched in a distinctive brand of romantic connotation. For example, Dave and Karkat are linked to anime romance cliches, with Dave as shonen hero and Karkat as heroine.
Jade and Davepeta are linked by a mutual indulgence in furry identity. Vriska and Terezi get the “Home Sweet Home” connotation of The Wizard of Oz, and Dirk and Jake have the undying devotion and mutual passion implied by their link to The Princess Bride.
Rose is once described as a reserved girl “enamored by what dwelt in shadow”. This is a facet of her characterization that’s present from moment 1, what with her interest in the Horrorterrors. Another obvious place to go is Mom, and by association Roxy–both of whom certainly “dwell in shadow” as Void players.
And then, of course, we have Kanaya:
Vampires are traditionally associated with hiding in darkness, away from the Light. And Kanaya describes her rainbow drinker fantasy in exactly those terms. So this aesthetic link between them is established pretty damn early, too.
Of course, Kanaya is not a traditional vampire. I’m far from the first to point out that Rainbow Drinkers most strongly resemble the hyper-romanticized, shine-in-the-light vampires of Twilight, one of the most popular romance series for teen girls of the 2000′s.
Taking that incredibly popular aesthetic and using it as a wrapper for the love story of two girls is instantly compelling. What’s genius is that this is a cocktail of imagery that has natural appeal for Roseas a person, because while it’s true that she’s interested in the darkness that surrounds her, it’s clear that Rose spends her narrative seeking the truth and the meaningful.
In other words, even when she’s enmeshed in darkness, what Rose wants is…
The Light. She may not have taken an interest in Meyer’s prose or Edward’s surly patriarchal authority, but all else being equal? Rose was all but made for a story with imagery like Twilight’s. That in and of itself would be evocative and romantic enough, but it goes deeper.
Because Rose’s relationship with Kanaya is deeply interwoven with her relationship to the reality of Homestuck, a conflict that Kanaya directly helps her solve. Perhaps fittingly, given that Kanaya is a Sylph implied to be “Made of Space”, and so innately linked to the Setting of the story through her Aspect.
This conflict between Rose and the Setting of Homestuck is, in my view, nothing less than the main thrust of Rose’s character arc, so it’ll take a little bit to unpack. Let’s dig in.
But even before she learns about him in name, she spends pretty much her entire arc resisting and fighting against his machinations, subtly perceiving something deeply wrong in the story from its very beginning.
In this, Rose strikes a compelling counterpoint to her partner TT, Dirk Strider. Because If Dirk’s character arc revolves around his belief that he himself is inherently evil, then it’s fair to say Rose’s main conflict is a belief that the world itself is inherently evil.
Or at the very least, incomprehensible and meaningless. Random and empty of logic or reason. And borderline antagonistic to her and her friends, as though reality itself is an unfortunate occurence.
In other words, Rose’s experience of reality is deeply colored byVoid, the aspect of the unimportant, meaningless, irrelevant, and most importantly: incomprehensible.
Just as Dave’s sense of self is broken by his abusive upbringing from a Prince of Heart, so too Rose’s sense of reality is shaped by her codependent relationship with her Mom, a guardian whose actions she can neither understand nor predict.
As a Seer of Light, Rose is drawn towards trying to understand the truth, and in particular the inner truths and meanings behind the minds of others. At the core of her being, Rose is a person who desperately desires to know and understand.
Consider how frustrating this must make Mom’s erratic and dysfunctional behavior to her–there’s no rhyme or reason behind her mother’s actions, influenced as they are by her depression, loneliness, and alcoholism. There’s just apparent randomness from the person who defines her entire life– in essence, the God of her household.
Add in Roxy’s tendency toward passive-aggressive behavior–which Rose definitely perceives from her Mom, whether it was intentionally directed at her or not–and it’s unsurprising that Rose quickly begins to view reality as not just nonsensical and arbitrary, but outright antagonistic.
Rose’s inherently defiant worldview is only intensified by Sburb. Not only does Mom continue being aloof and indecipherable, but Rose discovers that fate has apparently already decreed that she and her friends are doomed to failure and death. To Rose this is more than unacceptable: It’s infuriating.
Throughout Act 5, characters often comment on how Rose’s obsession with subverting Sburb leads her to becoming withdrawn, self-serious, and distant from her relationships. She also attempts to assume responsibility for herself and everyone around her, culminating in the suicide mission she tries to take on alone.
All of this is accompanied by her tearing her Land apart, as she foregoes its “childish” path in favor of something she perceives as more mature and adult. Most blatantly of all, Rose flirts with emulating her Mom in her most obviously adult activity: indulging alcohol. Rose is, in essence, trying to be an adult. Forcing herself to grow up too fast.
By the way? Withdrawing emotions, carefully managing the feelings of others, attempting to assume outsize responsibility for their households and attempting to take care of their guardians are all behavioral hallmarks of kids who grow up in codependent households.
Fast-forward to the aftermath of Cascade, when Rose achieves God Tier and comes face to face with Kanaya for the first time. It’s notable that achieving God Tier is the first moment that Rose is given any indication whatsoever that the plight she shared with her friends was not just random, pointless doom.
It is instead a lucky break. Or a suggestion of greater meaning. In essence, it’s the first time Rose is given really any reason to see reality as anything but the chaotic, nonsensical burden she’s experienced it as so far.
The revelation is accompanied by Kanaya’s sudden phosphorescence, which Rose describes as “inexplicable”–a word usually associated with frustration for her. Here, however, it comes as a happy surprise. Here, Rose is seeing through the incomprehensible Void of her reality to perceive Light for the first time.
Especially since the trend continues. As Rose grows more confident reality not necessarily ALWAYS being a hellish, meaningless landscape of random and pointless suffering, she also grows more playful and willing to be sincere. She grows to trust the Light she was once so suspicious of, asks Kanaya out on dates, and comments on things she enjoys about her without insincerity.
But she remains traumatized and conflicted about her relationship to both her Mom and the world, and takes up Mom’s alcoholism as a way to try to understand the former and ignore the latter.
This comes between her and Kanaya, since Kanaya relies on Rose to help her figure out HER role in the world, and to figure out how to achieve the revival of her species.
It’s worth mentioning that alcohol abuse, for both Rose and Roxy, is extremely Void-coded. It leads Rose to prioritize the pointless, ridiculous, unimportant and non-existent.
Here, Kanaya ends up valuing the desires of her physical form as a Rainbow Drinker over the more idealistic goal of the revival of her species, or even her relationship with Rose. As such, the two girls’ problems are marked as the same problem, even as they drive them further apart from one another.
And we see where their disunity and lack of direction takes them Pre-Retcon: It renders both of them less effective, and thus less important to the plot. It also leads them to misfortune. Rose’s inability to connect with and help, or even be helped by Kanaya, leads directly to tragedy in her relationship to the world.
Good thing there’s a flip side.
In the retcon timeline, Rose and Kanaya work stuff out. Rose gets past her alcohol addiction and directly credits Kanaya’s aid for it. Kanaya resists the pull of literal blood as she takes Karkat to Echidna and engages in an intellectual discussion about his relationship to his Aspect and the future of Troll-kind.
Rose reconciles with her Mom completely through Roxy, finding meaning where she could only speculate before. And with her increased ability to sort truth from lie, important from unimportant, and meaningful from irrelevant…
She resolves the tension between herself and the “demands” of Sburb, openly voicing her ambivalence to the very concept of her Personal Quest. In so doing, she illuminates an important truth to both the cast and the audience: that Sburb’s prescribed path to self-actualization is not particularly important, and certainly not strictly necessary.
Inner truth, understanding, good fortune, foresight, and happiness–Rose never needed to comply with some videogame’s 12-step program for self-satisfaction to get any of that, and neither do we. Light can arise anywhere, as long as you have the patience to look for it and people who love you at your side.
Hope this helps you see what I see, anon. Rose and Kanaya’s story is one worth cherishing, and I haven’t even come close to saying all I think there is to say about it, if you can believe that! But its a start.
Happy rosemary month, happy Halloween, and as always
Flying through Storytelling 