Mmmhm. Basically this @revolutionarygays . Like sorry but this shit is demonstrable and worth taking seriously whatever you think of the other lines of criticism he’s gotten.
Tag: swamp-wizard
figured i’d lightly weigh in on this since i’m very aware of the situation:
i support swamp-wizard and i loved his blog content. this idea that keegan somehow wasn’t a good ally to lgbt women is just mind-blowing to me – he’s been such an influential voice (to me, at least, and a lot of other lgbt women i know) in pushing back against the rampant misogyny in both media and fandom, including being willing to actually listen to lesbians and make an effort to understand the experiences of gay & bi women when interacting with media. i’m shocked (but not surprised) to see people who are neither women nor gay leveling these accusations against him
Sigh. Ok, actual last word on this because I’d like to close off on a perspective that is closer to my values and less a byproduct of shock and anger. This is my ACTUAL last word on the matter in public, I don’t want to clog up fun happy fandom times with this nonsense, but revgays if you’d like to talk further you can contact me privately.
At least insofar as I and the people I know are coming from, it’s really disingenuous to pretend this is about “shipping” or w.e the fuck. What this is about is that swamp has repeatedly refused to stay in his damn lane basically and just, you know, be cool? Not be an enormous jackass to people he doesn’t know and incite harassment at them/call into question their LGBT identity as a way of undermining their Progressive Cred or w.e?
No matter which way you cut it, Swamp has mocked, vagued and ostracized several fan creators for having petty disagreements with him. He’s been called out on it and told its fucked up–by ME, when I was under the impression he was a cool dude and was making an effort to be friends with him as well as other people who he directly affected–repeatedly apologized, and then proceeded to do the exact same shit anyway.
As @callmearcturus said, he apparently didn’t even bother to clear up the mess he made wrt his accusations at her. That’s fucked up. This dude has 0 credibilities and that’s because there is a demonstrable pattern of lies and not caring about trust or goodwill w/ said fans he doesn’t agree with! That’s a lot of what has earned him this response so, tough shit.
As for the Hiveswap stuff, my honest opinion is that however reasonable his anger is, his reading of the game is flat out fucking wrong. It’s bad analysis.
It is demonstrably, blatantly untrue and says nothing meaningful. His lines of criticism were shut down by wp statements on the few pieces of narrative ambiguity there are.
Criticism isn’t all made equal, or free from criticism itself! Swamp is fundamentally engaging in bad, lazy criticism, in that he says nothing accurate or substantial about the game. This is insufferable given his arrogant posturing about knowing Everything About Homestuck (but like, frankly who am I to throw stones there?) and DOUBLY insufferable when he uses it as justification to rob lgbt creators from profit.
Now all of that said? I don’t hate Swamp. I don’t think I’m capable of hating much in general. as @ao3sburb said, I kinda hope he comes back someday. I don’t LIKE being mean, especially not to fellow LGBT people–there’s nazis out there, the world is scary, we need to stick together etc etc.
But I TRIED to be friends with swamp. Really hard! All I got out of it was a bunch of my friends being harassed and endless bullshit vaguepost drama. And I genuinely thought he was cool for the longest time. I seriously have not had a more dramatic, hurtful, and drawn out experience of being let down and let down by someone I tried to believe in, and every time I chose to give swamp another chance it usually ended in another friend of mine getting vagued or harassed.
I still feel guilty about that, so the idea of giving him a pass over it and letting you turn it into “shipping nonsense”? Fuck that. Swamp fucked up, and he was mean and cruel in contexts where it was completely unnecessary. Over and over and over again.
So like I don’t think he’s satan, I certainly don’t think he’s a FASCIST (LOL i cant believe I heard that one), but I do think he’s fundamentally misguided, and to the extent that he’s hurt he’s internalized a pattern of lashing out in really ugly and unwarranted ways.
I hope he gets better. I hope he takes care of himself. And when he comes back I hope he knows to just like, be fucking chill about stuff with his fellow LGBT peeps and shit. We deserved the understanding and nuance at least as much as he does now, according to your logic, and we. did. not. receive. it.
We are under no obligation to provide what he proved unwilling to give.
im probably not gonna answer any more asks about swamp. The bottom line is hes been an influencer in this fandom for a while and was willing to pirate Hiveswap and distribute pirated copies of the game because of his sense of ideological superiority. That’s the Disc Horse, that’s what I care about. if you want to find out about his past drama, ask someone else.
hi um, not gonna ask from my main blog even though i think youve taken admirable steps to keep your candid discussion from becoming a dramabomb, but yeah… i had no idea that swamp wizard was pirating this shit, thats Evil, but like… even before that, he was accusing cohen of promoting child molestation because of the dumb obvious interview joke, and insinuating that only the kid friendly rating of hiveswap was preventing cohen from writing child molestation into the narrative. like… jfc
The history of swamp’s blog is that of a lazy, arrogant blogger smugly taking the dimmest view possible about what has now been DRAMATICALLY REVEALED to be one of the most hard-working, dedicated, kind-hearted and well-intentioned group of LGBT art creators out there, actually doing the work and taking the risks to make an IMPACT on the cultural sphere.
This has involved denigration perception of their brand among fellow fans in vicious sacrifice to building up his own status as an Ideologically Good and Correct Progressive, and literally hurting their bottom line and risking the death of their ability to make art.
And he’s done this NOW, in the age of fucking Donald Trump, when LGBT stories and antifascist stories are at more risk than they have been in the last century.
There’s not much to value in his ideological legacy.
im so very furious i havent been this furious in a long time. keegan is one of the nicest and most patient people i’ve ever met and he has some of the most insightful opinions on m/m relationship representation in media and its treatment in fandom that i’ve ever seen and the fact that people like fucking arc who is a cis ace person thinks that her kweer card entitles her to the same level of perspective that keegan, a gay trans man has, is so fucking unbelievable to me because it pretty much proves so many of the points keegan has so succinctly made over the years.
this completely ignores the lesbians and trans mlm who he’s labeled ‘cishet women’ yaoi fetishizers. oddly enough, when you mislabel people over and over again for having the gall to prefer a different ship than you, and then your followers send them hate over it, people don’t end up thinking of you as nice and patient…
but instead you managed to make this about aces not being queer
This is the last thing about this fucking asshole I’m gonna say. I got better shit to do.
But let me be profoundly clear: I am not a cis ace person. I am a queer woman.
And what’s hysterically funny is that when SW first came at me and tried to drag me for being “Fake Queer”, I sent them a long message explaining why, at the time, I had been using the “ace” label. It was a reaction to a deeply traumatic event that I still have not and will not speak about publicly (half because i can’t, half because it’s none of anyone’s business). I was very badly damaged by what happened– still am– and part of my reaction was IDing as “ace” for a while even though I am more accurately “theoretically bisexual, functionally lesbian.” I’ve since moved on and recovered enough to put that “ace” label away as things get a little easier. As the idea of being attracted to people stop filling me with anxious dread.
THE BEST PART IS I explained this to your precious little friend. I told him about my extremely personal trauma. I told him because I wanted to impress on him how he needed to stop assuming he knew people based on their fucking tumblr minibio.
I gave him a show of trust that he ignored because it didn’t fit his narrative.
Your nice and patient and insightful friend was an asshole to me and to a lot of other people. And the fact you still think I’m a dreaded fake gay ace woman who has no place in this discussion makes it clear he never fucking changed his tune, he never learned, and he’s literally the sort of anti scum everyone in fandom is fucking sick of. The kind that will happily perpetuate a lie because they want to continue shitting on people they don’t like.
And people like you fall for it every time.
I’m queer. Your buddy lied to you rather than risk losing face. End of discussion.
This is the last thing I’m saying on this subject because I have actually interesting shit to discuss, which swamp wizard is fucking not.
But I want to note that I got off EXTREMELY light in the grand scheme of harassment Swamp has incited, despite the fact that I was the initial point of contact–and conflict–that got him to start tracking women lgbt dirkjake fans and making vagueposts about them and w.e the fuck.
I still kind of hold myself personally responsible for bringing up the core disagreements that led Swamp into conflict with these women, so I feel pretty lousy about that.
The least I can do is point to the fact that I, a dude, got off pretty clean, while it was lgbt women who kept getting the worst of his vagueshit and presumptuous attitude, ideological superiority and lgbt gatekeeping.
So y’know. Just a lil thing to consider there.
@Swamp-Wizard this, by the way, is what actual mlm/wlw solidarity looks like. It’s not just a meme you use for progressive brownie points, its caring about lgbt women and wanting them to have more doors open to them.
Hiveswap accomplishes this both through having new characters to relate to (like Joey) and new respected and valued content creators/role models who’s success can be an inspiration to girls like them (like Shelby Cragg).
You absolute FUCKING hack.
friendly reminder that pirating hiveswap is a Shit thing to do and by pirating a kickstarted indie game no matter your opinion about it you are still actively stealing the success and income from a studio of queer folks and undermining a passion project for a number of people and you should feel Bad
[Note: Long post incoming. This is going to include hiveswap spoilers.]
News on this front finally reached me and I’m fucking LIVID that this was going on so, for once, I am getting in the discourse, and I think from now on my official discourse policy is I’m not bothering unless what’s involved is shitty enough that I’m willing to call a spade a spade.
To be clear, I’m naming Swamp by name only because he’s the one who’s actions and words I am currently furious with, but the influence he’s had on his groups moral and progressive priorities is worth bringing up. Plus he’s gone so no one can fucking aggro at him “For” me or whatever.
I will not be naming anyone else he engaged with by name in this way, because it is Swamp specifically and his toxic ideological influence on ***MOSTLY MINORS*** that I care about.
Every single person currently defending swamp and who has been engaged in the actions I’ll be describing is a rational thinking and feeling human being and they are also, for the most part, minors. They’re also pretty much all drama hounds so they will absolutely all see this and come to their own conclusions.
Let them think things through on their own, and most importantly leave them the FUCK ALONE. I want zero direct interaction between me and these people, even through the proxy of someone unwillingly taking what I say and using it as justification to send them anon hate or w.e If you do this it will be expressly against my wishes, and I will be pissed.
Are we clear? Good.
So it turns out I’ve got some stuff to say.
I’ve had swamp-wizard blocked for months because they were kind of this weird pedantic double-faced asshole to me for months. There were a number of incidents that led me to finally giving up on pursuing a friendship with him, including swamp inciting harrassment against actual lgbt friends of mine like @callmearcturus .
One such early incident was couple peeps in his crew coming at me personally for being a furry. Which Swamp “disavowed” at me publically but given that he’s been a two-faced liar about everything else, his credibility with me is zero and I do not trust him. Even if he’s not personally responsible there, it’s a good example of the absolute NONSENSE priorities his particular brand of moral purity encourages kids to engage in.
Because furries are a known cultural bastion for LGBT sensibilities, so there’s a long history of furries being mocked which has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with their close relationships with self-idealization, self-love and being, you know, LGBT which makes the whole practice of mocking them fucking hilariously anti-progressive.
To be clear, I am not upset and don’t care.
I only and exclusively mention this because the hypocrisy endemic to a bunch of people goddamn fucking OBSESSED with the idea of being Morally Pure “Progressives” cheerfully making fun of people for identifying with a group historically about, you know, positive depictions of LGBT identity and personal upliftment is relevant to what I’m going to say:
Swamp Wizard doesn’t give a fucking SHIT about women or queer people, and the piracy of Hiveswap is proof. Everything OP said above? Goes double given that Joey Claire is a fucking marvelous character who already EXPLICITLY, CANONICALLY, CONFIRMED BY SEVERAL WP STAFF an exploration of compulsory heterosexuality and literally, explicitly a lesbian.
She’s also a fucking MARVELOUS protagonist. She’s a good big sister! A brave and willing friend! She’s a goddamn HERO, and the kids at school call her a poser for liking games and not being “girly” enough and she’s neglected and angry about it and LOUD about her anger and the narrative regards her as *completely in the right*.
Hiveswap’s narrative is one DEAD FOCUSED on the big, ugly, bitter, complicated feelings of a teenaged EXPLICIT lesbian already, feelings that are treated completely seriously and given the absolutely spotlight, and we’re only on Act 1.
Hiveswap is a DIRECT response to the rightful complaints fans have had about Homestuck’s relative lack of direct stories about female sexuality, and that should be taken seriously, not shoved under a bus because of some dude’s petty fucking bullshit about not liking a tasteless joke and jumping to conclusions about stuff in a game that is JUST NOW beginning.
What this showcases for me is a stunning and complete lack of any kind of common god damn sense or perspective. Swamp apparently hyperfocused on one off-color joke and one panel of EXTREMELY AMBIGUOUS BLUSHING on the part of a boy (Joey did NOT look interested), that WP staff themselves SAID was ambiguous, NOT NECESSARILY ROMANTIC blushing….
and spun this whole fucking self-satisfying, morally superior yarn about how this was DEFINITELY ABSOLUTELY HETBAIT and hiveswap was RUINED because…xefros and dammek have conflict. that the whole series will likely center around given that dammek is the fucking PROTAGONIST of Hauntswitch.
But basically what you’ve got here is swamp overvaluing the fanon ideal of a m/m relationship and his personal views on the male creator of the game to the point that he COMPLETELY skipped over what a narrative like this can mean for lgbt little girls and grown lgbt women, and completely ignored the voices of the FEMALE creators ALSO WORKING ON THE GODDAMN GAME that loudly confirmed this was intentional.
And then he used this to justify stealing ACTUAL MONEY not just from the male creator but from the women who clearly worked on developing Joey’s story, too! Because apparently their feelings and work and need to survive dont fucking matter! And neither does getting to see Joey’s incredible canon depiction continue!
Hiveswap could be fucked up and problematic in EVERY OTHER RESPECT and Joey as depicted thus far would still make it one of the most progressive works in history. It would still be worth it. It would still be important.
And if missing that fact is not the most fucking typical result of this self-righteous anti bullshit, I don’t know what is. Listening to people like Swamp means hurting the progressive cause and real, living and breathing LGBT people who care enough to MAKE this art and risk their livelihoods and probably suffer economic hardship for YEARS to get this story about this little girl who likes girls out there–in favor of what? petty ego, bad analysis, and bullshit short-sighted, mean-spirited, CRUEL fan entitlement. It’s disgusting.
I’m beyond glad he’s fucking gone.
from the top, in a new post cause the last one got too long. @ao3sburbanite @revolutionaryduelist
Alright, I’m noticing some discrepancies between what I think and what you’re pointing to so maybe its worth clearing those up.
womp womp
alright here we go sorry i took forever
Some really insightful shit about Rose and Damara vis a vis Scratch
Ok, that’s a genuine parallel I hadn’t noticed before and thanks for pointing it out to me cause that’s really cool and adds to their narrative. Good shit
It also…does nothing to counteract my point? Yes, you’re right, sometimes Homestuck’s parallelism is absolutely meaningful and important, I’m not denying that and never tried to. Other times it’s Homestuck using a series of shots because we know them and they look cool.
My point wasn’t “VISUAL PARALLELISM IS MEANINGLESS”, it was “Visual parallelism is one element that should be taken into context, and the context with Dirk and Jake’s relationship is incredibly intricate and complex.”
And speaking of visual parallelism…
(oh, and by the way – the fight we see during [s] prince of heart: rise up is the novice setting. folks tend to forget that, but roxy re-activated it beforehand, and jake confirms it again in his following pesterlog with jane.)
I keep hearing this like it’s some Devastating Argument every so often–
You realize this only undermines the idea that we should be taking the visual parallelism between this fight and Aradia/Vriska as directly symmetrical, right? On multiple levels.
1) If this is the novice setting, then it doesn’t show us the actual problem Jake says he has with the Brobot, which is it acting “Tender”. Unless the Brobot tearing out his Heart for Jake is in line with that, which…I would actually buy lmao. So the visual language of the comic is already slightly off-kilter from the language and writing setting it up.
2) Homestuck has always played fast and loose with slapstick violence in the context of fast-paced fight scenes, but it also telegraphs it pretty clearly when characters are being seriously *hurt*. When Aradia beats the shit out of Vriska, she’s drawing a shitload of blood. Jake’s fight with the Brobot comes with a bunch of funny gags and slapstick goofs.
It’s visually intense, I’ll definitely grant you that. And if you want to put it on Hussie for making it too intense then…sure? But we’re not meant to take this goofy slapstick the same way we’re meant to take the somewhat righteous revenge Aradia takes that leads to Vriska’s god tiering, and we’re not meant to take THAT the same way as a 30 year old man stomping down a 13 year old.
I’m preaching to the choir here, I know, my point is just: I really don’t think the graphic nature of the flash is as important as the visual signposting the comic uses for actual damage being done to someone. It’s easy enough to think Brobot was pulling punches through the simple fact that it doesn’t draw blood, and humans are a lot less fragile than trolls.
Which is important, because as for the context…
dirk sent jake the brobot to set jake up with dirks idea of an adventure scenario – a scenario which jake IMMEDIATELY rebuffed as soon as he learned what it entailed! and when dirk cant win him over (by arguing that it will “sharpen [his] combat skills”… Hmmm🤔🤔🤔), he changes the subject.
How on earth does Dirk’s idea of an adventure differ from any other? Adventures inherently constitute a goal which may be elusive, a dangerous journey (in this case, a controlled amount of danger), and surprises and setbacks. That’s what adventure is–they include uncertainty.
How would you have designed Dirk’s perfectly morally justifiable adventure scenario to challenge Jake with? How might an adventure be designed in a way Jake at 13, who does nothing but sit in his house scared of monsters, would be perfectly comfortable with? I seriously don’t see how Dirk could have accommodated Jake’s particular “idea” of adventure.
Because Jake’s entire thing is claiming to be down for LITERALLY ANY ADVENTURE, but he doesn’t actually do so out of fear of the monsters. My point isn’t that Dirk handled this perfectly–he didn’t–but that he wasn’t imposing some random idea onto Jake he got from nowhere. He got the idea from Jake, and what Jake continually said that he wanted.
They also typically include conflict and fighting, so yeah there’s A TRAINING ELEMENT involved here. It’s just not Dirk’s primary motivator. Dirk’s primary motivator is trying to give Jake what he thought Jake wanted…because Jake told him he wanted it, not because Dirk arbitrarily decided Jake SHOULD want it.
Jake rebuffed it immediately, yeah…but Dirk turning it off would also pose a danger to Jake’s life that Dirk would then have to contend with being responsible for, and at this point Jake has been pulling Dirk to and fro with flirting and anti-gay comments for quite a while. My point is, again, not that Dirk doesn’t fuck up–just that there’s no reason to think this is some cold, calculated manipulation Dirk is pulling off to get Jake to Accept His Methods.
It’s a gay boy disappointed that his romantic overture @ his best friend didn’t work out when he pinned a lot of hope on it, and tired of talking about it because the conversation had already been hurting his feelings quite a lot.
And again, that’s still pretty shitty! Just no more shitty than Jake’s lying and willful ignorance. And the alternative–turning the Brobot off–would be shitty and terrible too, with potentially far worse consequences than Jake being uncomfortable.
We don’t have any reason to think Dirk had control over the Brobot at this point, either–and even if he did, by the present day, AR would be able to veto him since AR is Dirk but…better at computers. And more ruthless and bitter.
Gee it’s almost like Dirk committing fundamentally innocent and well-intentioned fuck ups that nevertheless leave him and those he cares about with enormous consequences is something that happens often in his arc, and that leads to him hating himself even more than he’s already inclined to.
Not that that would make Jake’s abuse not abuse, but…
whos to say hes being honest here? the exchange you cite happens in the exact same pesterlog as where jake corners jane into a “do you like me y/n” scenario – a scene which YOU YOURSELF have characterized as jake being deliberately misleading and deceitful, because he already knows the answer!
you can be afraid of someone and still want them to protect you. its a very common abuse tactic.
Which would be important and matter if Jake literally ever once showed indication of being scared of Dirk. He doesn’t. Jake running away has everything to do with Jake wanting to avoid confrontation on all fronts for his own sake, he never once even mentions being scared of Dirk. Which brings me to…
We can say Jake is being honest here because of context and Jake’s continued actions providing how he actually feels.
At this point Jake has gotten what he wanted out of Jane–an admission of friendship and emotional unavailability–and confessed to something he was clearly and unambiguously nervous about–that he’s given serious thought to being with Dirk, which he literally worries will have Jane think he’s weird.
We can also assume Jake is being honest here because Jake goes on to be obnoxiously honest at Jane about all of Dirk’s myriad flaws for six months. And at no point during that does Jake ever mention anything whatsoever about feeling intimidated or scared of Dirk, certainly not physically.
He most complains about him talking too much and being clingy and needy and unable to relax and believe Jake actually wants to spend time with him. Basically if at any point it was established Jake actually was scared of Dirk, then yeah, I’d say there’s merit to questioning that line. There just isn’t.
I’d also say Jake being scared of the Brobot isn’t really that well-founded! Jake mostly voices frustration and impatience at having to waste his time, not discomfort at fighting the Brobot–and where there IS discomfort, it has to do with it being “Tender” and figuring out Dirk’s feelings and AR’s aggressive romantic propositioning.
Even beyond how he TALKS to people, Jake’s adventure through the island simply doesn’t have the sense of anxious tension that Dave’s wandering through his apartment does. Jake is mostly pretty blase about the whole thing, and when Brobot shows up he’s framed as happy to see it–where Dave is worked up and anxious and notably distressed and increasingly so literally from moment one.
jake concedes all of janes criticisms of the brobot, but defends it with this scrappy adventurer persona hes set up for himself that we KNOW is bullshit. “sometimes when i walk through the jungle im sweating bullets […] but its like every day is more of an adventure”. his eagerness to make excuses is startlingly reminiscent of daves defense of his bro from acts 2-3.
it’s interesting how you cut out the bit where Jake says he thinks the brobot is exciting here let me put that full quote here cause i like it:
GT: Which sometimes is annoying and sometimes when i walk through the jungle im sweating bullets wondering if its going to pounce on me outta nowhere.
GT: But theres actually something kind of exciting about that its like every day is more of an adventure.
Which matters because there is proof Jake is being honest here.
The key detail here is Jake’s language. Jake isn’t talking about his adventurer persona here, he’s talking about his own feelings. Jake is as obvious and transparent about his front as Dave or Karkat once you know what you’re looking for, it’s the difference between:
GT: I consider you to be a lovely lady of the highest caliber and i really think any gent worth his salt would be a huge bozo to let the chance to go steady with you slip through his fingers.
and
GT: I guess if it was going to go this way…
GT: I kinda pictured something different?
GT: There was stuff i wanted to say.
GT: To the real him i mean.
Jake is complicated, but he’s not any more inscrutable than Dirk. You can figure out what he actually means with some attention to detail.
jake does not like the kind of sneak-up-behind-you-and-snap-your-neck ninja bullshit dirk likes.
This stuff literally never happens in the comic. All the Brobot does is play fucking hide and seek and show itself when Jake needs to be saved from a goat monster. Dirk framed it that way–he’s not the best salesman–but we have no clue if the Brobot behaves this way ever, since it…never does. and in any case, everything I said above.
To whatever extent Jake was (understandably) put off, he grew into it. So it was a fuck up, but not one that did him serious harm–lasting or otherwise.
dirks insistence to roxy that jane will believe everything in due time, that they just have to wait (for dirk to open her up to the possibility of the fantastical truth) isnt doing anything to help.
i cant say that dirk being open and honest would have made jane instantly believe either, but his indirect puppetmaster bs (complete failure though it may be) sure as hell wasnt the right way to handle things. dirk had so much faith in his (totally nonexistent) ability to manipulate people into becoming their best selves that he completely ignored the healthiest and most obvious solution of “just be open with your emotions numbnuts”.
I don’t think Dirk tries to manipulate Jane into believing stuff at all, and I don’t think there’s any reason to think so. He literally tells Jake to do whatever he wants re: Jane, he just thinks she’ll think she’ll being fucked with. Which doesn’t exactly jive with this idea of Dirk as being this obsessive control freak:
TT: Jane is…
TT: No. I haven’t.
TT: I’ve dropped some hints and tested her willingness to believe something like this.
TT: It’s just not going to fly. It’s way too much drop on somebody all at once if they aren’t receptive.
GT: Hmm. True but it seems a shame to keep her out of the loop.
TT: Well, tell her whatever you want. She’ll likely think she’s being fucked with.
TT: Personally, I wouldn’t bother trying too hard to convince her. There’s no point in alienating her.
TT: Some day she’ll be ready to believe things.
Dirk doesn’t tell her stuff because he doesn’t want to alienate her. And even then, he uh…he does. He’s plenty open with his emotions. And he’s sweet about it, too:
TT: Jane, soon you’ll believe what I’ve told you.
TT: You’ll believe it all.
TT: It’s just a shame that believing will take something so coarse as seeing, for a girl as sharp as you.
TT: Critical thought can lead one to accept the unlikely, just as much as dismiss the impossible.
Dirk isn’t relying on manipulating Jane to get her to believe stuff. He’s relying on the simple fact that eventually Jane is going to have to face the facts of all their lives anyway, because she’ll have to play Sburb. He correctly deduces the core of Jane’s identity–just as he deduces Jake is smarter than he wants people to think he is–and picks up on the fact that Jane will believe things once she directly experiences them.
This is fundamentally accurate, since waking up on Skaia is when Jane starts immediately coming around. Even so, he literally goes out of his way to tell Jane he thinks she’s smart, and that she’ll believe the things he’s been telling her.
Dirk is pretty up front about lavishing his friends with praise and pointing out what he sees as things they do that are problems, but he doesn’t really do much about the latter. Where Dirk bottles shit up is concerning any way that their problems might directly hurt him, because Dirk is too busy hating himself to even consider begrudging any of his friends any actions they take.
if dirk wants jane to be less skeptical and more trusting, and dirk wouldnt be pleased to hear jane say she likes the auto-responder, isnt the natural conclusion to reach that dirk lets jane engage with the auto-responder under the pretense that its him, and is upset that she can tell the difference?
Given everything I pointed out above?
Literally no, since his primary issue with AR is always, consistently, that he hates Hal conflating their personalities. A conclusion that puts Dirk randomly at odds with his primary character dynamic thrust with AR in order to make him more manipulative is not the natural conclusion–it’s a possible one, but you’d have to prove it to me.
I might have missed one or two points but I think this covers the main stuff. I’ll take another look tomorrow and see if I have anything to add but i gotta get to bedz
from the top, in a new post cause the last one got too long. @ao3sburbanite @revolutionaryduelist
Alright, I’m noticing some discrepancies between what I think and what you’re pointing to so maybe its worth clearing those up.
which is why i described dirk as a “prime contributing factor”. it wasnt solely his fault. but hes also not blameless, which, again, is what im getting at here.
Yeah but of course Dirk is a contributing factor, he’s one of four kids and they’re all pretty much inextricably contributing. I don’t know anyone who thinks Dirk is blameless–I just know people who think he got as much as he gave, and that the bad he gave is way overstated in proportion to the other Alphas.
an approach which dirk (at the beginning of his arc, as i specified in the op) explicitly agrees with, in his very first pesterlog!
It’s more complicated than that, and really I don’t know why you would assume what any characters say early on is the definitive statement on the feelings of any Homestuck character. Like. This is Homestuck. Come on.
Dirk tells JANE he agrees with that approach, rattles off a number of other reasons, and then says it’d be fucked up to stop Hal and that he owed it to Hal to let the program run as long as possible.
You could conceivably imagine Dirk growing out of the other shitty reasons he gave, but if he did, he would still feel obligated to let Hal have his way also. That’s a problem without an easy moral solution Dirk has access to, which is what he struggles with right up until he almost kills Hal.
Also by this point in the narrative Jane has also already talked to Jake, who explicitly points out that Dirk doesn’t like Hal, and wouldn’t like that Jane loves him.
and we can infer, based on what we know “jake should be more like jane” entails, that jane is/has been on the receiving end of the auto-responders mind games.
We can’t infer any such thing, because Dirk is clearly and demonstrably not in control of Hal in the first place. That’s the entire point of Hal. Even if he was, how would Hal messing with Jane’s head make her LESS skeptical? That doesn’t make any sense?
This besides the fact that Dirk is voicing an observation that he doesn’t act upon at all, he’s also voicing an observation that is…literally correct.
Jane’s ignorance and skepticism does great emotional damage to Roxy, who literally goes on at length about it directly to Dirk. Jake’s willful ignorance (which he frames around believing whatever is convenient to him) does enormous harm to both Jane AND PERSONALLY TO DIRK, including Jake making comments that make Dirk feel isolated and potentially judged for being GAY, not to mention romantically unreciprocated.
That’s serious shit to do to someone even if you’re only doing it because you’re a clueless 13 year old, and it shouldn’t be disregarded as part of Dirk’s character especially since…we have evidence that stuff bothered him.
you can chalk up the fact that we never see jane being played by the ar to bad writing (hussie admitted in one of his tumblr q&as that he struggles in writing jane, although those are now offline), or a deliberate choice – because jane says she likes the ar, shes not affected by it in the same way jake is, and so we would learn nothing important about her by seeing her reactions with it.
but i think your theory that dirk intended it specifically as a bodyguard for jake is flawed, too. because he made jane a bodyguard – lil seb – but lil seb didnt “stalk [her]” and “strike when [her] guard is down”.
As I pointed out up there I’m pretty sure I can chalk up Jane not being played by the AR to the fact that AR playing with Jane doesn’t make any sense at all, and AR’s mind games have nothing to do with Dirk’s thoughts or goals because he doesn’t control him anyway.
I don’t really see a reason to put anything on “bad writing” when there’s a perfectly coherent explanation that is backed up by later canon events sitting right here.
You’re missing my point with the Brobot, too.
1) It’s not that the Brobot wasn’t a fuckup. It was! But it was a mutual fuckup born of both Dirk and Jake’s mistakes, because…
2) The Brobot’s goal isn’t JUST to be a bodyguard, you’re right. It’s just also not to provide training, although it includes that function too.
The Brobot is more specific. Its purpose was to set Jake up with an adventure scenario, and Jake’s quest to hunt it down is framed at one repeatedly. Adventures prior to the point it was sent were something Jake always talked about loving but never actually did, because he was too scared of the monsters.
Dirk wasn’t trying to impose training on Jake–he was trying to help him live up to his fantasies of himself. The motivations there are significantly different.
Which again, doesn’t make it not a fuck up. It just turns out to be a relatively happy fuck up, because Jake actually likes the Brobot in the end anyway–so much so he internalizes the image of Dirk as a protector so strongly he believes in it above all else when the chips come down.
As for Jake complaining about the the Brobot, he does most of that in the context of arguing with Hal and wanting to hurry along his adventure. Notice how he admits to liking it and thinking it makes his life more exciting and adventure like when he’s speaking in confidence with Jane, and actually being honest.
The situations are parallel to Tavros and Vriska, because homestuck likes being self-refential and setting up parallels…more often than not to subvert them. There being some visual parallels–ESPECIALLY with flashes, which usually cheat to be more efficient to produce anyway–doesn’t mean there’s a 1:1 correlation between all the morals and power dynamics in a situation.
Like. Come the hell on. This:
Is not the same situation as this:
Forreal. Come on.
vriska and dirk (at the beginning of their arcs) are both people who take “the ends justify the means” to its logical extreme
theyre both people who grew up from infancy under incredibly adverse circumstances and, instead of acknowledging that that adversity traumatized them, recontextualize their coping mechanisms and survival tactics as “strength”. vriska tells herself that her lusus turning her into a child soldier and constantly dangling the threat of death over her head made her a smarter, stronger, more cunning person. dirk tells himself that growing up isolated from any human contact and being forced to fend for himself against the elements and assassination attempts by the condesce made him capable, self-sufficient, and mature.
they think that adversity made them strong – pressure makes diamonds, steel sharpens steel – and that they are their best selves. and they love their friends (yes, even vriska – look at the way she talks to aradia or terezi), and they want whats best for them. specifically, dirk and vriska want what they think is best for their friends, regardless of their friends actual wants or needs. dirk and vriska think that adversity is what made them strong, so in order to empower their friends, dirk and vriska will be that adversity.
of course this fails because dirk and vriska 1. are stupid children, and 2. lack the social graces or understanding of interpersonal relationships to know when theyre pushing someone past their limits. the only real difference is that vriska is hyper-empathetic, whereas empathy for dirk is a learned skill – vriska has explosive episodes of rage that shes immediately consumed with guilt over, and dirk hurts people because he cant really understand when theyre expressing unease or discomfort
and they both have arcs that revolve around this architecture of strained, broken relationships and inflated egos crumbling around them. all of vriskas friends turn against her. dirks emotional inaccessibility is a prime contributing factor to the trickster clusterfuck. vriska, who thinks that she can handle everything, is killed by terezi in order to prevent a doomed timeline. dirk, who thinks that he can handle everything, is functionally neutered for the entire condesce/aranea conflict when jade teleports him to the furthest reaches of space.
post-retcon homestuck has a lot of flaws (ive written about this extensively before) and one of them is that while dirks arc gets a satisfying resolution, vriskas doesnt. dirk comes face-to-face with his own worst case scenario, how his mindset and behavior has the potential to damage people irreperably, and resolves to make amends and change. (vriska), when divorced from the environment of constant stress and violence that defined her childhood and shaped her as a person, opens up, lets herself be vulnerable, acknowledges her own flaws and shortcomings and ultimately reunites with the terezi from her native timeline. vriska prime doesnt have these same revelations about herself – yes, vriska prime and (vriska) are the same character, and (vriska) exists to show vriskas true nature and potential for introspection and self-awareness, but vriska prime is still exhibiting the flaws (vriska) overcame all the way through the end of homestuck. vriska comes SO fucking close to having a satisfying resolution, swerves, and misses it. thats the fault of bad writing, though.
ultimately though theres more than enough evidence of vriskas character to make her sympathetic and forgivable – more than dirk, even, id say – it takes a certain special kind of cognitive dissonance insist that one is guilty and the other is innocent
While I agree that Vriska is a complicated, nuanced character with a lot of terrible abuse in her past, I do disagree with this point:
“Ultimately though theres more than enough evidence of vriskas character to make her sympathetic and forgivable – more than dirk, even, id say – it takes a certain special kind of cognitive dissonance insist that one is guilty and the other is innocent“
You mention that Vriska has a lot of episodes of rage followed by remorse, but does that really excuse the things she does in these periods of rage? Yes, she had a terrible childhood, but she also inflicted a great deal of pain on others, which she never truly apologizes for. She does make an effort to apologize to Aradia, and Terezi makes it very plain that they’re cool, but Tavros? She paralyzed him and emotionally abused him throughout the entire story. Even discounting that she kills him (you could argue in self defense), she taunts him with his own severed legs while fighting him.
Rage and mental illness do not excuse abuse of others. They can explain it, but they can’t excuse it. Yes, Vriska is a victim in a lot of ways, but she’s also a villain in the truest sense of the word – she turns other people into her victims.
Nevertheless, (Vriska) made a lot of effort to change the things about herself that led to her abusing other people. I like (Vriska) a lot. Main timeline Vriska, though, has never been forced to examine her flaws or apologize for them. It’s clear that Vriska avoids any type of introspection, and is afraid it will make her weak. To complete her arc, she’d need to learn that it’s OK.
Dirk, on the other hand…he isn’t really guilty of much besides simple miscommunication. He and Jake both fail to communicate with each other – the result is that Dirk’s insecurity over whether Jake actually likes him makes him overbearing, and Jake’s failure to communicate that, yes, he does in fact like Dirk but needs some goshdarned alone time sometimes and that doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to be with Dirk anymore means that Dirk ends up pursuing him relentlessly. His darkest deed is to almost murder a brain-clone of himself, but it’s important that he decides not to do it. If he had, then Dirk would have probably been destined for a Just death in the end, because it would have been an unjustifiable act of murdering a defenseless person (regardless of how annoying AR was to Dirk). This is why I think he gets more breaks than Vriska – he has shown himself capable of resisting the urge to do a bad thing, Vriska has not.
The trickster arc is a result of all of the Alpha’s issues – Dirk’s self-hatred, Jake’s lack of faith in himself, Jane’s resentful self-sacrifice, Roxy rightfully feeling under-appreciated for her attempts to keep them all together. I don’t really see how it’s anything to do with Dirk specifically.
I’m pretty busy rn so I appreciate someone else writing what I wanted to so I don’t have to. This, basically.
I think Vriska is a fascinating, nuanced, compelling and deeply sympathetic character. Hell, I think she’s redeemable, if Homestuck is as good to her, (Vriska), and Ghost Tavros as I hope it will be.
There is also not a world in which she’s morally equitable to Dirk. There’s no cognitive dissonance here–just an awareness that just like Vriska and (Vriska) are different characters who went on different journeys and are at different places in the narrative, so are Dirk and Hal.
Hal being the character who actually DOES take “The ends justify the means” approach you’re talking about. The only time Dirk even remotely does anything that seems like doing so is sending Jake the Brobot, and that has little to do with satisfying Dirk’s ends and everything to do with enabling Jake’s.
Don’t really disagree about the ways Dirk fucks up, though–just the degrees. Dirk never sets out to train a kid and make him stronger (again, if that was his motivation, why not train Jane too?) and he certainly doesn’t then break his legs and kill him when he fails to rise to his expectations.
Hal coerces and manipulates Jake in a lot of uncomfortable ways, but Hal is Hal, and Dirk doesn’t like what he’s doing so much that Jake knows about it and Dirk talks to Hal way more angrily and viciously than he ever does to any of his friends.
Dirk DOES need a “redemption” narrative…on about the level of every Alpha. Hal is the one who takes things to abusive extremes, and he gets a rawer deal than Vriska as his redemption because he sacrifices himself to becoming a shitty homoerotic puppet hulk asshole.
Conflating these characters’ identities to this extent is the actual cognitive dissonance if you ask me.
Flying through Storytelling 