jumping off of that last post – this is why i dont put much stock in classpect analysis, because there is so little supporting it in canon and what there is can be interpreted so many different ways
like i said, the canon complementary aspects are time/space, but theres enough similarities between space (being) and void (non-being) to consider them opposites. and when you look at the classes that are usually considered complementary pairs (with NO support from the narrative), a lot of them just seem to be tacked together because all the others were already taken. for example, what is the overlap between breath (wind, freedom, forward momentum) and blood (unity, brotherhood, interpersonal bonds)?
wouldnt the more sensible pairing be breath and doom, and blood with heart? breath represents freedom and autonomy, while doom is implied (we never meet enough doom players to know for sure) to represent submission to a predetermined outcome – whereas blood represents bonds and community, and heart represents ones own self or identity. OR you could draw a line between doom (predestination) and mind (choice). hell, forget doom, its the duty of a time player to submit to the will of the alpha timeline – wouldnt a knight of doom and a knight of time use different methods/tools to the same ends? wouldnt a seer of time and a seer of doom both be granted with Knowledge of the ultimate will of the alpha timeline?
what about breath and mind? “my path is the only path” vs “two roads diverged”. or light and rage? enlightenment and good fortune vs. despair and senseless destruction. or hope and breath? what i believe vs. what i do.
which is why i tend to value classpect analysis by textalks over, say, bkew – bkew makes assumptions about which classes and aspects are complementary, and then uses those assumptions to prop up more assumptions about where characters arcs are leading, or what theyre not telling us. assumptions built on assumptions, putting weight on a house of cards. whereas textalks works the other way around – figure out what characters do and think, looking at their complete journeys through the narrative, things we know, and then drawing conclusions about what classpect means from there. most of the classpects are very nebulously defined, and theres enough in the canon to extrapolate an approximate meaning, but if you build a house on unsteady ground it cant hold itself up for long
I basically think Classpect analysis needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. I think we know basically what all the Classes and Aspects do and are (or at least, can be), but you’re right–a lot of the fanon around it has essentially turned into a complicated house of cards, and it’s limited the way we think about them up til now.
For instance I actually agree with BKEW’s Aspect pairings (and iirc Tex does too), but I think “inversion” as BKEW posits it does a lot of harm to our abilities to read a coherent narrative into Jade, Aradia, especially Jane (which is a particular point of aggravation for me).
I also think in nailing down particular pairings we’ve sorta forgotten that there can be parallels and synergies beyond just the complementary pairs. The aspects are meant to make up all of reality, after all–it’s totally possible to think of constructs that are primarily made up of one or two aspects primarily even when they aren’t pairs.
For example, the Green Sun incorporates Light as much as it does Space. The Horrorterrors are as Lifey as they are Voidy, and water itself has both Life and Void connotations depending on how you look at it.
The aspects are colors used to paint all of Paradox Space, and there’s ways they can resonate with each other beyond just their complements. That’s what makes the system compelling, imo.
im not saying that one depiction of dirk is more accurate than the other but i am saying that people who think dirk would be clean and put together and have a skincare routine have probably never lived with like, depression
actually wait lemme cut into this joke a lil deeper til its not a joke any more
lets talk about where that fanon of dirk as being super put-together and vain and fixated on his appearance comes from, because its not the fucking comic. we get one offhand sentence about how he doesnt want to mess up his hair, but its not even the primary reason why he chooses to wear a hat on his shirt instead of his head (they dont fit). never mind the fact that dirks hair has looked exactly the same since he popped out the ectobiology tube. and he spends a lot of time in the shower, but thats because hes fucking dissociating – dreamwalking on derse and zoning out in the waking world. hes the only one of the kids (alpha and beta) who doesnt alchemize a new wardrobe upon entering sburb – just those gaudy fucking shoes, and a gas mask out of necessity.
john styles his hair and alchemized a bunch of outfits, and both the lalondes wear makeup (not to mention roxys beehive would require LOTS of maintenance, were it not the hairstyle she was born with due to cartoon logic/symbolism). but nah… its dirk… the gay dude…. who is always read as being vain and fixated on his appearance… even when its at odds with everything else about his character
im not saying that fanfiction about dirk exfoliating is like, HOMOPHOBIC OPPRESSION, i dont give a shit about people who depict him that way. ive cracked those jokes before, cause theyre easy. its a stereotype but its pretty much the most harmless stereotype imaginable, and ill go to bat for feminine gay men regardless. but what im SAYING is that if you want to call out innocuous homophobia in dirk depictions, youre going to find it there, in the insistence that hes soft and good-looking and puts a lot of effort into how he looks, whereas theres literally no cultural affiliation between gay men and… say… just an example, just spitballing here… annoying stem majors
Sure, I’ll bite and jam about Dirk I’m not sleeping tonight anyway.
I’m willing to agree, actually. I don’t super dig feminized super pretty put together Dirk–though I do think there’s elements of Dirk that care about his appearance because…Dirk spends his life in love with Jake and he’s worried Jake won’t like him cause he’s not a girl, which is untrue but it’s an idea Jake literally put in the guy’s head, and I derive great personal pleasure from the idea of Dirk realizing it’s bullshit and figuring out how to chill a little.
If there’s one aspect of ~radical leftist~ Dirk as you put it I’d take issue with it’s the sideburns, and only because…it’s a visual signifier largely linked to Bro and usually indicates a conflation of the two, which makes me pretty uncomfortable! It skews towards
You’re also essentially claiming I’m making a point I didn’t actually make about the STEM major thing btw.
There is no cultural affiliation between gay men and stem majors, no, and I never made that claim. There is a conflation of stem majors and elitist assholes, and it is uncomfortable that the only gay man in the comic is twisted into an elitist asshole when he actively strives and succeeds at not being one in the comic. Like, his struggle in striving not to do that and terror at becoming it is his defining character trait lmao.
That that association is sourced in rhetoric that said gay man is pushy towards and Inherently Toxic to his friends (ALSO something that’s not from the fucking comic)–in ways largely linked to his gayness–doesn’t make it better. And that all of this reflects into the WAY humor surrounding Dirk is telling and interesting even if, no, I don’t think all or even most of it is intended cruelly. It still sets an overall image of what fandom thinks of Dirk.
It’s why I initially tried to broach this subject somewhat gently while still stating facts about a pretty meaningless joke in the context of all things. When questioned about it I even did my best to deescalate and clarify, but I honestly didn’t get the impression there was any point at which people were listening.
Which sucks! But whatever, it was a shitpost, not everyone is into Deep Homestuck Thought all the time, I get it. Still, this is cultural impact 101 we learn in sjw school or whatever isnt it? Jokes can have effects beyond what you intend for them when they reinforce cultural narratives?
It’s not that hard to look back to 2013-2014 and realize there were legit homophobes and people caught up in moralizing mixed into the Dirkcourse crowd, and that the fact that we’ve made no great effort as a community to reevaluate popular views of Dirk could mean that many of the ideas they introduced could still carry through memetic culture.
I think that’s worth considering, at the very least. It’s a version of homophobia that does a lot more damage to Dirk’s image than how pretty he likes to make himself, and I’ve seen and felt first hand how it affects the ability of lgbt mlm youth to find positive representation in him when it’s the dominating narrative.
i feel like all of the discourse over “the ar is responsible for actions x y and z whereas dirk is only responsible for actions a b and c” is like. missing the point in a really big way
like its useful to a certain extent and hussie does take the effort to distinguish between their voices – and if youre going to analyze either of them you should know how they interact with each other – but a lot of yall tend to take it to the conclusion that “no, lil hal is a cruel abuser and dirk is just a soft boy who wouldnt do anything wrong”
the point of lil hal – and bro, to a lesser extent – is to show what dirk is capable of. lil hal is crueler and less forgiving than dirk but those inclinations towards abusive behavior dont come out of nowhere. and you see that pretty clearly laid out in dirk and lil hals last pesterlog (which takes place on the rooftop of a skyscraper and thats not a coincidence)
hussie draws these parallels deliberately, over and over again. like its not an accident or a fault of not reading closely enough that readers get dirk and lil hals actions confused, hussie did that on purpose. its neither the first nor the last time he uses alternate selves to explore multiple facets of a character (dave becoming much more somber, introspective and insecure after spending months in a doomed timeline and becoming davesprite; vriska becoming soft and loving and emotionally open after entering the afterlife and being freed from a hostile environment). lil hal and bro are components of dirks Ultimate Self and you really can not conduct an efficient analysis of his character if you brush them off as totally separate people, instead of the same guy under different circumstances
I feel like there’s p much no way this doesn’t reflect on my writing on some level, so I feel pretty justified chiming in:
I feel this take is also simplistic. I don’t consider AR and Dirk wholly different people–that’s exactly why AR knows how to hurt Dirk, and it’s also why Dirk is so bothered by seeing himself in the AR. They’re the same guy, obviously.
But the thing to take away from that isn’t necessarily “Dirk is equitable to all of his splinters in all situations, and some people’s Ultimate Selves are inherently worse than others’ and so they are always doomed to being Kind Of Shitty People.” They’re also the same guy who makes starkly different choices, and make those choices for different reasons.
I think it’s important that Dirk has the potential to be like the AR, absolutely. I also think it’s important to note that he chooses not to be. Just like it’s important neither of them are as evil as Bro, for that matter. Context, circumstance, power and agency and the reasons why these kids make the decisions they make–all of that matters, too. If it was just about who you are on the Ultimate Self level then agency doesn’t even exist in Homestuck’s story, does it?
Dirk’s narrative matters because he sees the potential in his ultimate self and chooses to respond to it in a completely unique way: By destroying it. By choosing to become something different. He manages to do it by relying on his connections, his bonds with his friends, backing up the entire narrative of all of Homestuck and it’s focus on the themes of reaching higher levels of understanding of the world and yourself…through connections to other people.
That’s what makes Caliborn and Gamzee the true antagonists. That’s what they don’t do–bond and connect emotionally to others. Dirk does this. Dirk does this extremely hard forever, and I think that’s worth celebrating about him.
It’s obviously true that the AR tells us something about Core Dirk, but I don’t think anyone would argue that. I also don’t think anyone would argue that Jadesprite is Literally Exactly The Same as Jade, or that Davesprite would’ve jumped into a relationship with Karkat with open arms, either.
You can read Dirk as someone with the innate potential for abuse and know that it’s a core facet of his character…and still see that the decisions he makes in his Alpha self iteration are very different. This Dirk makes different choices, and those choices are worth considering as much as the AR’s.
You’re right that it’s not a mistake that the fandom gets confused about who says what with regards to the AR, by the way. But there’s a different reason to that than They’re Exactly The Same. The fandom gets them confused because–as Dirk himself points out–the AR deliberately misrepresents himself as Dirk and blurs the line between their identities.
There’s a heroic narrative here that is being buried under having a simplistic, borderline villainizing reading of the only gay dude in Homestuck, and I think one can point that out without trying to hide the fact that that gay dude’s struggles center largely around being confronted with and terrified by his own potential for abuse and manipulation. The two readings are congruent.
I don’t really think the reading that allows people to make a joke and a butt monkey out of the one gay dude in Homestuck is the more nuanced and meaningful one, frankly.
I think it’s lazy–not just for what it does for Dirk when the actual canon is clearly going for something different-but also for what it does to Jake, who gets painted as a victim without agency or thought when he’s really one of the most interesting characters in the comic.
im gonna go thru this point by point bc thats the easiest way for me to organize my thoughts, hope thats ok
That’s fine with me, yeah. I tend to answer this stuff in order of complexity, so I’ll do that if it’s ok with you
ok, quick disclaimer – i disagree v strongly with the reading that dirk abused jake, ive talked about that extensively – but lemme play devils advocate real quick. reading jake as a survivor of abuse (by dirk or by anyone else) doesnt rob him of his agency or thought. people who are intelligent, strong, self-sufficient, etc etc get abused all the time. being abused doesnt mean someone is weak or that they have some kind of inherent fault of character… you can read jake as being his own fully developed person and a survivor of abuse
1) Yeah reading Jake as an abuse victim doesn’t erase any of that. I do consider him abused by the AR, Jane and Aranea, anyway. And reading him as abused by Dirk wouldn’t NECESSARILY erase the stuff I’m talking about–it’s just that it happens to do so in practice, because of the way fandom has approached the subject.
What it erases or at least tends to erase with regards to Dirk is the way Jake’s internalized homophobia hurts Dirk, and the way Jake is more comfortable playing along with a script and letting Dirk take charge of the relationship than facing any way he might’ve hurt Dirk.
It also erases the fact that Jake does want Dirk specifically, and considers the safety Dirk affords his solution to the threats presented by his actual abusers.
It’s the exact same problem behind how he treats Jane, but to suggest Jake had any hand to play in how his own relationship with Dirk played out is anathema to a lot of people. The fact of the matter is, he did, and as far as what we see of them chronologically in canon? Jake struck the first blow.
For the record, I’m not saying this means Jake earned any of how he was treated–since indeed Dirk never treats him badly except by virtue of having no good solution for the AR, and Dirk actively seems to hate the AR for what it’s doing with Jake (and Roxy, and even if you don’t think AR is being malicious towards Dirk with Jake, he’s definitely being malicious about the Roxy thing.)
Jake’s abuse is a wholly different narrative from Dirk and Jake’s romantic misadventures, though there are points where they intersect. Tipping the scales towards “Dirk is just Intrinsically Bad and Hurt Jake and Needs To Learn Better” reduces the nuance there significantly. That’s my only point here.
you are right in that dirk makes a deliberate choice in rejecting the cruelty in his splinters and in his ultimate, “natural” self, and youre right in that his interpersonal bonds factor into that decision. but i would say his interpersonal bonds are the reason why he chooses to reject his cruel inclinations, rather than the method by which he does so. dirk is forced to rethink his own nature, what it means to be “a good person”, and his goals for himself because he cares about his friends and he cares about dave and he is confronted with how his behavior, his nature, has damaged them. this is probably just a matter of semantics tho
2) Yeah p much. I think his friends are both the why AND the how–the two aren’t mutually exclusive. And while I can definitely agree with your reading that Dirk learned things like empathy and treating his friends well, by the earliest we see him–13–he’s already seemingly done so.
You mention how Dirk realizes his nature has damaged them by the time he talks to Dave. Fair enough, as far as the AR, and Dirk is definitely inclined to accept responsibility for all of AR’s behavior anyway (which I think is a good thing even if I also think it’ll be a good thing when Jake rightfully calls bullshit.)
But you also point to Dirk’s behavior, to which all I can say is–what behavior? All of it traces back to the AR. I’ve already broken down how it makes no real sense to assume the Brobot had anything to do with Dirk wanting to “train” anybody and everything to do with Jake’s misrepresenting himself to his friends.
It’s way likelier to me that Dirk adopts his “training” persona later, as a way to cover up how badly things fucked up. Is it fucked up that Dirk can do that in the first place? Yeah, I think so. It’s just fucked up to the exact same degree as Jake believing in whatever’s most convenient for himself at any given point.
dirks ultimate self is inclined towards cruelty more than, i would say, any of the other kids. which isnt to say that hes an inherently cruel person. i think – and ive talked about this before – that sympathy, for dirk, is a learned skill rather than something innate (and this grounds my reading of him as an autistic person, altho im sure most ppl would agree whether they see him as autistic or not). his first instinct – across all timelines and splinters, a universal constant of Dirkness – is to hold others to his own standards, which can result in him treating them in a way thats cruel or harsh or, yes, abusive, in the case of bros parenting of dave. and under certain circumstances, in certain timelines – the alpha, post-retcon timeline – he does learn sympathy, and he does become kinder and better at connecting with others.
The problem with the “Dirk imposes high standards on his friends” thing is basically–where is it in canon? The Brobot has more to do with Jake’s desire for adventure than with Dirk, and if you really still think it was Dirk being invested in Training anyone primarily I’d need to understand why he doesn’t train Jane the same way, since she’s even more unprepared than Jake is.
Dirk lightly comments to Jane that she could stand to be less skeptical and Jake could stand to be more critical, which, given how Jane’s skepticism hurts Roxy (and Dirk, but we see Roxy say it) and how Jake essentially uses his beliefs as tools to get what he wants from his friends with no accountability or having to play his hand to get it…yeah I’m willing to say Dirk isn’t out of line in saying so. Those aren’t very “high standards” in my honest opinion.
And the AR was shit, but Dirk has a stated motivation distancing himself from the AR on an agency level. Dirk considers hampering the AR to be abusive and cruel, and even before entry that’s already something he’s trying to stay away from doing. If you want to ask why Dirk doesn’t approach Jake with his feelings on the whole situation–well, he does. Jake knows Dirk doesn’t like the AR. He tells Jane so.
What Jake and Dirk presumably haven’t talked about is all the romantic intrigue the AR sets up, and if you want to take Dirk to task for that then fine…but you have to take Jake to task for it too. Arguably more in my opinion, because Jake KNOWS he hurt Dirk’s feelings and played with his heart with his dumbass heteronormativity goggles early on in their lives, and rightfully deduces it still has an effect on Dirk’s feelings by the time of the Sburb game.
So we’re not disagreeing on what events happen here–I can agree Dirk learns sympathy, and even that he does so due to seeing how his nature can hurt his friends. I’m just arguing he did this much earlier while watching the AR do his thing, and he didn’t intervene himself because…well… he considered his own hands tied by a philosophical dilemma–thus tying Dirk’s arc in with philosophy, which is the point of the whole thing.
right, but hussie chose to have the ar behave that way, is what im saying. the ar isnt guilty of misrepresenting himself because hes not guilty of anything, hes not a real person. hes a fictional character and the author who wrote him made him say all that, because he wanted to blur the lines between dirk and ar, because he didnt want the readers to be able to tell the difference unless theyre paying close attention – because both of them show us important things about the whole character.
…
right, i think you and i are on the same page but were coming to different conclusions. and this is addressed in dirk and daves pesterlog – that dirk is a good person not because he is so innately, but because he chooses to be. i agree with that statement. but i also think that Dirkscourse forgets that he had to make that choice – softness, benevolence, understanding doesnt come to him naturally
We do fundamentally agree here. I think all of this was intentional on Hussie’s end, and I do think Dirk had to make that choice. I just think he was a quicker study about it than you seem to, and I also think Dirk making that choice makes him one of the noblest characters in the comic. Dirk’s choice to be good is powerful because the stakes were so high for him and he was capable of so much worse.
i think youll find that people are much more inclined to crack jokes about characters who they like. i feel a deeper level of sympathy with dirk than any other character in homestuck, or pretty much any other fictional character ive ever seen… which is why i rip on him so often.
Sorry but I crack jokes about Dirk’s gay ass getting owned all the time. I’m no stranger to the concept of riffing on characters. What I’m pointing out is that fandom paints Dirk not just in harsher edges but with outright inaccurate ones precisely because of this stuff, and if that’s ever going to change we need to take note of it.
A perfect example from yesterday: Some dirkjohn shitpost painting Dirk as an “annoying STEM Major”. Dirk’s personality in the story has pretty much as much to do with STEM as it has to do with anime–which is to say, basically squat dick. It’s a minor interest of a character with a multitude of them who is primarily driven by philosophy and culture–liberal arts stuff.
Not that I mind weaboo Dirk or robotics Dirk exactly, but the reason that label was given to him is basically that…it’s the shitty asshole thing to be. It’s a step above MRAs, maybe. So I don’t think it’s really people celebrating this character when they undercut his canonical interests–which include history, culture and philosophy much more than they include robotics–in order to paint him as more of a jerk.
Because that’s the fundamental perception of Dirk: A jerk. An elitist grump. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with Dirk himself in canon–it has a lot more to do with AR, who is a Dirk… but a Dirk who has been largely shut out of his relationships and has no body and is bitter and vicious as a result. Dirk himself simply does not act even remotely in that ballpark. Ever.
Interestingly, when I pointed out the op was thinking of an asshole version of Jade (since Jade is in fact a STEM focused character, and she actually calls Jake dumb during her grimbark episode), someone or another counteracted this by claiming it was untrue because Jade wouldn’t be an elitist, and would be more likely to tutor people. She’d be less of an asshole, basically.
The thing is, tutoring people is something Dirk…explicitly, canonically does and wants to do. He never treats Jake like he’s even an iota less smart than Dirk himself when they interact– even as he provides extensive history lessons, literary critiques, and philosophical rambles. He’s fucking thrilled when Jane so much as voices the possibility of learning about his irony stuff–even though he never looks down on her Pranksterism stuff, and in fact elevates it to the same idealistic heights he takes to his own craft.
Dirk cares about sharing information and teaching, and he’s never an asshole about doing it. So again: A fundamental misreading of Dirk, that the fandom has been led to out of the perception that he’s an asshole. So yeah, I don’t doubt people LIKE Dirk even as they twist him grossly out of character.
But they like a Dirk who exists absolutely nowhere but in fanon, and canon Dirk is actually a lot sweeter and gentler on pretty much every level–and yes, I do believe that’s a choice Dirk has to make in the face of his instincts, which if anything makes that sweetness all the more valuable and worth celebrating to me.
(I also feel like Hussie deserves a lot more respect for the writing behind Dirkjake in general, which yes, is one of the most transcendent gay relationships not just in Homestuck but in the history of queer writing, frankly.
Not the most important ship in Homestuck, necessarily, because obviously what relationship is The Most Meaningful is going to vary by the person–I love Rosemary and Vrisrezi but am not wlw, and so mlm narratives speak more to me.
Especially so with Jake and Dirk, where heteronormativity and internalized homophobia, and the emotional unavailability that comes with adhering to masculine standards (on BOTH their ends) factor so heavily.)
Flying through Storytelling 