look i am telling you, the ‘true’ sign thing is only in relation to us, the people taking the test, who know what they are and know what the ‘true’ zodiac is. within troll culture itself, i highly doubt that there is anything remotely special about any of them. for example, i HIGHLY doubt trolls consider cancer the ‘true’ sign for limebloods, considering how the sign came about way after limebloods were supposedly wiped out.

I don’t know that anyone’s arguing that troll society itself conciously considers those signs special, so I’m not sure why you’re addressing me as such.

But insofar as canon goes, those signs are already explicitly special, by virtue of the fact that their holders are the ones who all of Alternia exists to faciliate, so that they in turn can facilitate the existence of LE. Literally all of Alternian history already revolves around the 24 trolls who play Sburb–the beginning of the race, it’s evolution towards exploitative fascism, it’s eventual apocalypse–ALL of it traces back to the 24 trolls who play Sburb. Trying to tell me the signs associated with those trolls aren’t special is…kind of ridiculous?

Whether or not troll society is aware of that, or treats them with any special distinction, is beside the point. I’d guess they probably don’t! Why treat a Rustblood sign with any particular distinction if they’re all rubbish in the end, in Alternia’s eyes? Etc.

But the only thing Wak seems to be arguing for is an association between the Castes and the True Sign’s ASPECT, not the True Sign itself. And I feel that’s already demonstrably true, to some extent. 

All rustbloods have to think about their short lifespans and imminent deaths, and going by Xefros’ example, the sheer amount of time they’re expected to devote to intense service, too. All of that lends itself to a focus on thinking in terms of Time. All goldbloods have to think about the possibility of being conscripted to exploitative, sacrificial service if their psiionics are good enough. That lends itself to a cultural pattern of thinking about Doom. Olivebloods seem to be living in the wild, which would distance them from society and make them more aware of their Selves–and so, Heart.

So on and so forth. That dynamic is what I’m interested in, moreso than anything about the True Signs themselves. I currently regard them as indicators, not much else–the groundwork for this idea is all over troll lore, and that’s why it interests me. It’s possible we’re way off base here, but if so, I expect Act 2 will make that clear. Does that clear up my position for you, anon?

whatpumpkin:

Troll Call! Another two for one.

Curious about these new signs? Take the Extended Zodiac Test!

xI love them!!!

I don’t have much to say about Folykl right now, other than cool design.

But Maxlol’s eye colors are pretty interesting. The two-color duality motif typically associated with Goldbloods is present with him, but to a much lesser extent than it is for Sollux or Mituna–he’s got the eye colors, but isn’t color coordinating his outfits or anything.

If Wakraya is correct, and Castes are linked to their respective True Sign’s Aspect, then we can read that as him being somewhat influenced by his Castes’ cultural connection to Doom. Which makes sense, since he’s apparently excited to become a living technology/sacrifice for the empire.

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And the colors of Maxlol’s eyes are themselves pretty interesting. His left eye reads as Hope yellow pretty easily, but more fascinatingly, his Right eye is the purple color associated with Rage–Hope’s complementary Aspect.

This means that while his psiionics reflect the duality motif usually associated with Doom, they also seem linked to his true Aspect, and the opposing force that balances it. Fascinating stuff! I’m excited to learn more about you, Maxlol :33

Holy shit thanks for that link to wakraya’s true sign theory, I’m looking at the titles and noticed they make sense both directions. Time across multiple star signs gives titles like excavator, advancer, rebel, dissenter; and then rust class across aspects gives wanderer, lost, trailblazer, wayward, runaway. Similar across all the others. There definitely looks like a relationship! I just posted a link on my blog if you want to look for yourself.

Interesting as hell, nice 😀 I will definitely take a look though I’m pretty busy rn, but I’m really excited to hear this! Feel free to update me if you come across anything particularly interesting, too. 

soooo, with the new aspects descriptions and the traits they are focusing on and putting in the spotlight as major defining traits of those aspects, do you think you’ll reconsider Joey as Life now instead of Light? (and Jude as Light instead?)

I hadn’t really gotten to Jude yet at all–he still seems like a Doom player, but now I’m more uncertain about all of them.

I have been reconsidering Joey as a Life player pretty heartily, actually, BUT…I think in the end, at least so far, it’s only left me more sure she’s a Light player. 

But the reason why, I think, suggests some new infomation relevant to how the Classpect system works. I’m curious to know what you’ll think about it! 
And since I’m about to record this in video form and it’s pretty overwhelming and difficult to talk about, I think it’ll help to get my thoughts in order somewhat, so I think I’ll do some prep here. 

My logic goes something like this: 

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Xefros is a Rage player. Looking back at Act 1, it’s actually all there in his Page behavior! 
While Xefros himself isn’t angry or upset, he does continually frustrate, anger, and confuse Joey, essentially giving/serving her Rage (in my reading of Knights/Pages, of course).
What’s more, eventually Joey’s anger stops being directed at Xefros and starts being directed at Dammek and Alternia at large, on Xefros’ behalf.

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In this reading, we can understand Dammek keeping Xefros away from the sopor slime as “training” to be a form of serving him Rage, too–the Sopor Slime just keeps trolls away from the chucklevoodos, and the chucklevoodos have already been equated to Rage before. Xefros has been given Rage, to his own benefit.

I had figured that, if Xefros was a Page of Time, he’d eventually gain a Warrior to defend/fight for him through his communion powers–Xultan filled the niche perfectly. Seemed like a solid way to get Xefros to a Brain Ghost Dirk-type power boost or whatever. But Joey is ALREADY one of Xefros’ champions at the end of Act 1, and Xefros got her there mainly through Rage. Pretty solid echo of how Jake won over Dirk initially, or how Tavros won over Vriska/Aradia/Terezi (obviously, all of these to varying degrees of success).

So yeah, Xefros as a Page of Rage checks out. One critical difference, though: Jake and Tavros were already inclined to think in terms of Hope/Breath respectively at 13. While Xefros apparently has a considerable Ragey influence on Joey, he doesn’t seem to be thinking in Rage terms much himself. In Act 1, Xefros’ conscious THOUGHTS center around…

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Time. It’s not just him, either–Dammek has some pretty hefty Breath implications, especially once you consider that the hoverpad he took from Xefros is essentially an object of detachment and flight. But we know Dammek is a Blood player, as opposed to Breath. 

The bottom line is, there’s just too much DRAMATICALLY CAPITALIZED TEXTUAL EVIDENCE linking Xefros to Time and Dammek to Breath to be outright ignored.  We don’t know either way with Joey, but she certainly thinks lot about both Life and Light, and one of them presumably has to be her actual Aspect.

The way I see it, there’s two possibilities at play at this point. It’s totally possible, of course, that all of that stuff was just misdirection, or just stuff we weren’t meant to take seriously or read into. 

But if that’s the case, I’m not sure the fandom can ever actually accurately deduce a character’s classpect based on canon clues. Xefros has some Rage behavior, but it wasn’t telegraphed nearly as strongly as the Time stuff.

So maaaybe WP doesn’t particularly care for this type of speculation? Maybe the Time stuff was just like, general writing, and we’re not really meant to dig into the lore here and try to pick out clues and Figure Shit Out, like I thought we were being invited to do?

That would suck for me, but I would accept it. Hiveswap still has a stellar narrative with plenty of background lore to dissect and explore, Classpect stuff to look through or no. I’d be cool with just waiting for the narrative to tell us what’s going on outright, too.

However, until we know for sure one way or the other what WP intends, I’d like to keep regarding the Classpects as a coherent system with rules that can be figured out and considered in assessing characters’ natures and potential character arcs.

And there’s still the other possibility:

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Calliope told us player abilities can manifest “in defiance with their Aspects” under the right circumstances. We’ve seen this in Homestuck, most clearly with  Rose, which a lot of the fandom (you included, if I remember right?) has parsed under inversion theory.

I differ in that I parse it through Roleplay. It seemed to me that players attempting to act out a different Class, or being forced into acting as one, was always the source of these Aspect “shifts”. 

So Rose manifests Void not because Witch is Seer’s natural opposite, but because Rose is interested in Magicians and wizards and wants to take an Active role in Changing the fate of the session.

But I wasn’t sure if we were dealing with Aspect inversion, ie: the player simply switching to the opposing Aspect, or if the Aspect side of the system was even more flexible and players could focus on any other Aspect in the spectrum, too. 

This is the first clear indication I’ve seen for the latter interpretation.
My current best guess for why Xefros has all this Time focus and Dammek has all this Breath focus is that the blood castes, on Alternia, are somewhat stereotyped in favor of their corresponding Aspects. 

There’s a cultural bias predisposing members of each Caste to think in terms of the Caste’s True Sign Aspect. This is why Xefros implies all Indigos are super strong, but Equius’ introduction says he’s strong because he’s kind of a freak. 

It’s why Goldbloods are the class used to power ships and the like, but Sollux is a mutant, and Vriska says psiionics are a nasty variant of power that goldbloods only “sometimes” have. I reason this based on the naming structure the system itself uses, as sleuthed out by @wakraya

And it sort of makes sense, given Lord English nor Doc Scratch would care to figure out the nuances of every individual troll–the founders of the hemospectrum as it exists on Alternia only had the profiles of the twelve trolls Gamzee and Equius knew to work with, while guiding society’s development of the Caste system.

And this is a fascist, exploitative system, so I would’ve found it odd if it was actually good for the characters to begin with, to be honest?

So if each Sign in a Caste is linked to a different Aspect, but the Caste as a whole is stereotypically connected with or pushed into conforming to one particular Aspect…

Then we’re looking at a world where a lucky few would have the social advantage of being told about their own latent potential through their Aspect
(not that they couldn’t confuse themselves perfectly fine, if they were so inclined), but the great many were kept confused by stereotypes, and the contrast between their inner worlds and their own biological powers. 

This conflict would be different for everyone, and would become even worse factoring in the variety of roles further imposed by society–like Dammek and Xefros being forced into Butlering. 

The end result? A society where almost nobody is given the time and space to figure out who they truly are, and where almost everyone is playing against their strengths in some regard. As a bonus, almost everyone is stressed out, because they’re not allowed to do what would naturally make them happy. 

Sound like Alternia to you? It does to me.
And fostering that kind of widespread societal confusion certainly sounds like something you’d want to do if you were Doc Scratch or the Empress. What better way to keep the threat of uprising at bay? 

As for how it relates to Joey, well–if Aspect roleplay is a thing, then Rose might well have gone grimdark at least partly in imitation of Roxy. And if A. Claire is indeed a mutant clone of Jane Crocker like I suspect, then suddenly Joey has a profound admiration for a Mom she desperately wants to be like.

Hilariously, that means her Maid behavior might be roleplay instead of her actual Class, so I might be debunking myself here! But I’m a little more inclined to think her admiration is manifesting as an interest in the Life aspect in general. 

The key thing for me here is that her interest in Life has a potential source, that we can put under scrutiny going forward. Her interest in Light has no such apparent source, other than her own nature. Hence why I’m still falling on Light as her innate Aspect, at least for now.

As for Jude–I don’t even know right now, there’s too much going on. I’ll have to revisit him once the dust settles and I have some answers I’m more confident about. He certainly seems like someone chosen to suffer in Act 1, though, man. Poor kid. 

I might be reading too much into it, but it seems like a pretty solid way to use Classpects to tell us about the violent and cruel nature of Alternian society. Whether I’m right or wrong about any of this, though, Act 2 is going to be
very interesting. We stand to learn a lot!