some days i wonder if i’ll ever get tired of homestuck and then inevitably i come across some incredible bit i totally missed
today that bit is a preview panel from this page:
god i love meenah
Tag: vriska (vriska)
Normally I’d laugh along but no. I really can’t. Imagine Rose Quartz shattering someone’s legs and then demanding that they apologize to her for no longer being able to walk. Vriska is a sociopathic bully. Rose Quartz, while probably very SELFISH, consciously made a choice to never kill anyone, to celebrate life, and to defend the rights of the downtrodden rather than add to their suffering..
Did you like, not watch the new episode yet? Spoiler talk below
Thoughtful and nuanced responses as always, RD – and, yes, I did see the new episode. Here’s why I still can’t bring myself to your position, though.
Let’s start with an excerpt of one of the most sickening scenes in Homestuck:
AG: Apologize, Pupa!
AG: Apologiiiiiiiize!!!!!!!!
AG: Say you’re sorry for being a cripple! Wheeeeeeee!
AG: Aaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha!
I’m gonna keep this short and stick to the core points where we differ
1. If we’re getting personal, I’ve actually been put in the position of keeping secrets for someone even when everyone involved is a loved one and nuanced conversation could solve stuff. It isn’t fun.
That said, neither of our experiences is universal, so all I’m going to go off is SU’s text–and in that context sure, Pearl took some pride in keeping Rose’s secrets, but love is a strong word in this case. She was very clear that she wanted to tell Steven, but physically could not. She was denied her own choice.
The right to be forgotten is all well and good when you’re deleting stuff from Google, but Pearl isn’t Google. Pearl is a sentient person who was forced into complying with Rose’s agenda for millennia, well past Rose’s own death, when Rose didn’t have to deal with the problems and consequences of her actions anymore.
To answer this: `Let me put it yet another way – if Rose’s command to Pearl wasn’t geas but a request, if she had begged Pearl never to reveal the secret the way us ordinary mortals would have, would Pearl be in the right to break that promise?`
Absolutely. Rose is dead. Pearl’s pain and Steven’s denial of his own history are not. And Steven benefits quite directly from knowing, because knowing Pink Diamond’s history gives him something the Diamonds want–and Steven has empathy powers who’s full potential we aren’t sure he’s reached, so…there’s lots of ways this knowledge could be used for the better.
If she was hypothetically expecting a peaceful existence from now on, it’s only more reason she morally should have done so, because the Gems fought for freedom for everyone and her lies and command were objectively imposing a lack of freedom on the Gems to make their own choices.
It might have been understandable, but it’s also selfish.
And it’s an ideological betrayal of everything the Gems fought for.
None of which is relevant to the way Pink Diamond made the decision, or that Rose Quartz never removed the command from Pearl’s life or…y’know, just told the Crystal Gems the truth.
I honestly think PD was just comfortable with exerting power fairly thoughtlessly, as is the role she was born expected to perform. Social conditioning is a powerful force, and PD was conditioned to assert her authority over others and be comfortable doing so. Old habits die hard!
The thing is, thoughtless abuse of power was behavior PD was expected to perform. In the same way, sadistic violence is behavior Vriska was raised being expected to perform, which she was intimately aware of.
It seems misguided to me to apply all this context to PD, but not to Vriska. Alternia demands cruelty and vicious callousness from its subjects by design, on explicit pain of death. They were traits Vriska personally had to develop just to reach her teenage years. And that’s before we even mention Doc Scratch’s exploitation of the girl.
You don’t get forced to become a serial killer at like 10 and come away from it well-adjusted and nice–you figure out ways to live with yourself and justify your own actions, and the trouble with justifying violence is that it becomes a lot easier to justify more violence down the road.
Which is exactly what Vriska does–she’s fairly explicit about the fact that, fucked up as her behavior was, in her own head she was trying to make Tavros stronger to help him survive on Alternia.
Obviously, that’s not what she did. But she’s a deluded 13 year old deeply alienated from her own sense of self, so it’s no surprise she doesn’t understand that her intent didn’t really match her actions.
Vriska is being cruel and sadistic, but she’s also kind of forcing herself to be on some level, out of what she fairly accurately perceives as necessity–she expected to grow up and join Alternia’s army, not to get whisked away into Sburb.
All of which is explicit in the text, since Vriska is told so by…
(Vriska) herself. I don’t really agree with your opinion that (Vriska) like, doesn’t count because she’s dead? She still tells us plenty about Vriska’s past and her potential growth as a person. And honestly it’s a little weird to me you’d shoot down (Vriska)’s contributions to the narrative using like…
The exact argument Vriska uses herself? Like, idk, I see this opinion pretty commonly that Vriska is ultimately the one who mattered and (Vriska) does not, and I just don’t feel it. Vriska is p clearly a parallel to Lord English, and (Vriska) is the one who ends up with her girlfriend, happy and showered in symbolic and literal Light/Importance.
Homestuck is not unambiguously taking Vriska’s side on any of this, and if anything I’d suggest it does the opposite. (Vriska)’s arc tells us more about Homestuck’s core themes, in terms of explicit, unambiguous text, than arguably any other character but MAYBE Calliope and Caliborn.
None of which excuses Vriska’s actions when they’re garbage, which is often, btw. But there’s plenty of context for her actions, just the same as with PD.
And uh, my silly meme post led us into discoursing about not just one, but both of them simultaneously, so yeah in terms of my original intent of paralleling their moral greyness and tendency to polarize fandom discourse (which is all I was really commenting on–A Vriska in terms of how Vriska was received by fandom, with all her layers and moral ambiguity, not in terms of the characters’ arcs being particularly similar) I’m going to say I’m sticking to my original claim. Even so, this conversation has been p fun!
Have you ever written an essay about vriska and (vriska) or are you planning to because your theories sound Amazing and id Love to read more about it!!!
I’ve touched on the differences between them a TEENY bit in my Class series, particularly (obviously) during the section on the Steal classes. I talk about Vriska a bit in the Create/Destroy essays, too, since her roleplaying a Sylph (and sucking HARD at it) is a huge part of her early arc.
But I haven’t written about Vriska and (Vriska) SPECIFICALLY, mostly because there’s no way for me to do it right now without delving into speculation at the end since, ya know, the story isn’t over. And doing so would tip my hand as this huge vrisrezi shipper also and I just don’t want to get people super worked up for the potential way I think the comic WILL go in case i turn out to be wrong, you know?
But I’m starting to think it’s worth making a short post on like, the symbolism and stuff surrounding the two. It’s really fucking transparent honestly so I dont think it’d take me a mammoth amount of text. Hopefully coming soon??? ™
The weirdest thing is homestuck fans who insist that they like “(Vriska)” because she’s nice, but hate “Vriska” because she’s so mean and bitchy
like they’re the same fuckin person that’s the point!
the point of (vriska) isn’t to show that vriska is somehow capable of becoming a nice girl!
it’s to show that underneath all the defenses and walls and bad attitudes that vriska constructs around herself – she is just a really nice and loving – and very vulnerable girl who devotes everything to people she cares about. And Vriska is terrified of that because showing that kind of weakness and vulnerability is what gets you fucking killed or eaten by your own mom on Alternia.
Like I see SO MANY people who are in the “Vriska is an evil bitch and I hate her” camp go on to reblog pictures of Vriska crying and wearing knee-high chucks and talking about how “(Vriska)” should be protected.
They’re two sides of the same fucking person. That bitchy girl you hate is the same person as that nice crying girl you want to protect! You can’t understand one without understanding the other.
I mean I think (Vriska) tells us a lot ABOUT Vriska and that we can learn a lot about Vriska’s motivations and feelings about her…
But Vriska hasn’t learned those things yet. That’s the point. The living, Alpha iteration of Vriska doesn’t act the way (Vriska) does. She prioritizes different things and makes different choices, even if she has similar feelings deep down.
Those choices then go on to have negative effects on people like Terezi— Tavros especially who she KEEPS mistreating even after as she claims she’s made amends for the stuff she did wrong to him before and that Tavros should be grateful.
Personally I kind of hope Vriska and (Vriska) are both saved in canon somehow (I think Terezi could make that possible). But for ALPHA Vriska to have a happy relationship with Terezi, she uh…needs to change. She needs to learn to let go of her defenses and her persona. And changes that drastic will make her a fundamentally different person–one who is more like (Vriska) is now.
I don’t speak for anyone else but right now that’s what keeps me away from Vrisrezi stuff while leaving me more comfortable with (Vrisrezi) because…she hasn’t done that yet. Alpha Vriska, in particular, just isn’t at that point right now.
I jdon’t think you can look at Vriska and (Vriska) and say they’re the SAME EXACT PERSON who can be used interchangeably in any context because…when presented with the same stimuli, they would each respond completely differently.
And that includes how they’d deal with Terezi? Like, short of some outright Mind powers coming into play, Terezi’s in for a genuine and intense struggle trying to break through Vriska’s facade. It took (Vriska) like, a literal eternity to get past all that or something?
Which doesn’t mean I think it’s impossible or not worthwhile but I do think it illustrates that Vriska is not currently the kind of person (Vriska) is, who is open about being caring and willing, to be honest about her feelings and about accepting the feelings of others.
And just like it’s weird to me to say that all versions of a character are TOTALLY DIFFERENT and you can learn NOTHING about one character by seeing another version of them, so too it feels off to say all versions of a character are EXACTLY THE SAME.
Homestuck is a story fundamentally about finding balance and keeping a balance of perspective between philosophical extremes. I don’t think you’re ever gonna have the right of it when you look at a question as complex and nuanced as “Does Nature or Nurture decide who you really are and at what point do you stop being who you are now and start being a fundamentally different person” with an answer as extreme as “All versions of you are exactly the same person.”, basically.
As for people hating Vriska…yea I mean :shrug: Some people get triggered by abuse stuff, just like they do with how complex the narrative surrounding Dirk is, and that doesn’t really put you in the right frame of mind to really objectively critically evaluate all the nuances of the characters.
I also know people who would say Vriska would be much more tolerable if the narrative didn’t seem to elevate Vriska even as she abuses and actively shit on characters like Tavros or even Jake who get treated like shit by her. Which…is fair, even if I personally think what the comic is doing is more complicated. And not really on Vriska per se, but rather on Hussie as an author.
Personally I’m hoping the epilogue ameliorates this stuff somewhat. Shrug
i disagree! i get what you’re saying, but (under a cut because this got almost embarrassingly long) here are my thoughts on the matter
can i just say it feels nice to not feel like i’m the only one who ends up writing essay length dissertations about homestuck by accident for once
I just wanted to clarify: When I say I think Vriska and (Vriska) are fundamentally different people, I’m not saying that I think (Vriska) grew to be more caring and decided she’d be happier as a better version of herself. Like, it’s not like her fundamental *feelings* are different or that Alpha Vriska necessarily loves Terezi less, it’s just that (Vriska) knows herself better and is more honest, because…
Alpha Vriska is miserable. She’s unhappy and misguided and doesn’t really know what she wants or what matters to her, and she tries to compensate for that in a way sort of echoing Caliborn–throwing herself completely into a constructed persona, only where for Caliborn it’s that of the Conqueror, for Vriska it’s that of a Hero.
I don’t think Alpha Vriska is, at her core, like…RAH RAH I LOVE BEING ALONE AND CUTTING MYSELF OFF FROM PEOPLE. I think there’s a level to which she really believes she is, but she’s lying to herself–and although she doesn’t know that, (Vriska) does.
This…isn’t even like, an interpretation. The comic literally says so through (Vriska), which I wrote about and am posting as part of the classpect analysis series I’m doing literally right now. (Terezi knows this about Vriska now, too– which is why I think Terezi’s likely to save her from herself, and likely (Vriska) from the bubbles, too)
I think I’m probably preaching to the choir here though, I just wanted to clarify before I get into what I’m TRYING to say matters to me here:
Who you are isn’t just about what your core feelings are–it’s also about the way you present yourself to others and the Choices you make. This is what the Heart/Mind dichotomy is about, in my view!
So yeah, in a sense, at their Hearts–Vriska and (Vriska) are the same person. (I would not say this is exactly true of Dirk and Hal, because Hal’s circumstances include having his Heart mixed with a supercomputer, and because Dirk’s personal salvation comes literally in the form of his relationship with Jake–which softens him considerably throughout his life.)
But the choices Vriska and (Vriska) make are different. If confronted with Tavros, (Vriska) wouldn’t treat him like Vriska does. And that’s why instead of getting the truth from Vriska herself, Terezi is forced to find it in a different version of her out there in paradox space–a version of her who is willing to make different Choices.
Maybe that gets across what I mean better? In the same respect (and I SWEAR I’m not trying to turn this into Dirkjake, it’s just that Dirk and Terezi have parallel arcs as the primary representatives of this dichotomy) Dirk and Hal make fundamentally different Choices too, that set them apart and make them different people from one another.
And over time, the sum of those different Choices begin to put both pairs of characters with different parts of their Hearts–Hal and Vriska tapping into their ruthlessness and desire to play out a role (and both of them being kind of emotionally stunted, to their own detriments because they still have feelings and still care on some level, as a result), and Dirk and (Vriska) tapping into their care for their loved ones and true feelings about themselves.
So yeah i dunno if im driving you nuts in circles or getting my point across any better, but it’s not that I think Alpha Vriska’s feelings are Inherently Different from Vriska’s–just that her choices and motivations for making them are still different enough to set them apart. And those are also worth noting because they are a big part of what makes up a person’s sum identity.
I kind of don’t have any doubt at all Vriska and Terezi will have a happy ending of some sort, though–I’m just very strongly of the opinion that if that happens for Vriska it should somehow include the ghosts, too–especially (vriska) and Tavros. Luckily though I think that’s the likeliest scenario. I’m unusually optimistic about this stuff (though I think I have good reason to be), and that influences how I have read the characters up until now.
Which is why I kinda steer away from discussing Vriska right now, because there’s pretty much no way for me to voice my thoughts without coming off annoying and frustrating to people I feel like. So uh. Here I am woops sorry I can’t help myself I was writing about both of them the last couple days.
ANYWAY maybe i got my point across here. I see where you’re coming from but I can’t really BLAME anyone for having the readings of Vriska they do, though a lot of the time hating Vriska’s treatment of Tavros is actually hating Homestuck and Hussie’s writing of Tavros, a place where I think Hussie actually deserves (some) of that ire (i think Tavros’ arc is better than it’s given credit for.)
more i think about this stuff the more confident i am the epilogue will fix it though. just wish it would hurry up already.
The weirdest thing is homestuck fans who insist that they like “(Vriska)” because she’s nice, but hate “Vriska” because she’s so mean and bitchy
like they’re the same fuckin person that’s the point!
the point of (vriska) isn’t to show that vriska is somehow capable of becoming a nice girl!
it’s to show that underneath all the defenses and walls and bad attitudes that vriska constructs around herself – she is just a really nice and loving – and very vulnerable girl who devotes everything to people she cares about. And Vriska is terrified of that because showing that kind of weakness and vulnerability is what gets you fucking killed or eaten by your own mom on Alternia.
Like I see SO MANY people who are in the “Vriska is an evil bitch and I hate her” camp go on to reblog pictures of Vriska crying and wearing knee-high chucks and talking about how “(Vriska)” should be protected.
They’re two sides of the same fucking person. That bitchy girl you hate is the same person as that nice crying girl you want to protect! You can’t understand one without understanding the other.
I mean I think (Vriska) tells us a lot ABOUT Vriska and that we can learn a lot about Vriska’s motivations and feelings about her…
But Vriska hasn’t learned those things yet. That’s the point. The living, Alpha iteration of Vriska doesn’t act the way (Vriska) does. She prioritizes different things and makes different choices, even if she has similar feelings deep down.
Those choices then go on to have negative effects on people like Terezi— Tavros especially who she KEEPS mistreating even after as she claims she’s made amends for the stuff she did wrong to him before and that Tavros should be grateful.
Personally I kind of hope Vriska and (Vriska) are both saved in canon somehow (I think Terezi could make that possible). But for ALPHA Vriska to have a happy relationship with Terezi, she uh…needs to change. She needs to learn to let go of her defenses and her persona. And changes that drastic will make her a fundamentally different person–one who is more like (Vriska) is now.
I don’t speak for anyone else but right now that’s what keeps me away from Vrisrezi stuff while leaving me more comfortable with (Vrisrezi) because…she hasn’t done that yet. Alpha Vriska, in particular, just isn’t at that point right now.
I jdon’t think you can look at Vriska and (Vriska) and say they’re the SAME EXACT PERSON who can be used interchangeably in any context because…when presented with the same stimuli, they would each respond completely differently.
And that includes how they’d deal with Terezi? Like, short of some outright Mind powers coming into play, Terezi’s in for a genuine and intense struggle trying to break through Vriska’s facade. It took (Vriska) like, a literal eternity to get past all that or something?
Which doesn’t mean I think it’s impossible or not worthwhile but I do think it illustrates that Vriska is not currently the kind of person (Vriska) is, who is open about being caring and willing, to be honest about her feelings and about accepting the feelings of others.
And just like it’s weird to me to say that all versions of a character are TOTALLY DIFFERENT and you can learn NOTHING about one character by seeing another version of them, so too it feels off to say all versions of a character are EXACTLY THE SAME.
Homestuck is a story fundamentally about finding balance and keeping a balance of perspective between philosophical extremes. I don’t think you’re ever gonna have the right of it when you look at a question as complex and nuanced as “Does Nature or Nurture decide who you really are and at what point do you stop being who you are now and start being a fundamentally different person” with an answer as extreme as “All versions of you are exactly the same person.”, basically.
As for people hating Vriska…yea I mean :shrug: Some people get triggered by abuse stuff, just like they do with how complex the narrative surrounding Dirk is, and that doesn’t really put you in the right frame of mind to really objectively critically evaluate all the nuances of the characters.
I also know people who would say Vriska would be much more tolerable if the narrative didn’t seem to elevate Vriska even as she abuses and actively shit on characters like Tavros or even Jake who get treated like shit by her. Which…is fair, even if I personally think what the comic is doing is more complicated. And not really on Vriska per se, but rather on Hussie as an author.
Personally I’m hoping the epilogue ameliorates this stuff somewhat. Shrug
Flying through Storytelling 