When I think about the distinction between active/passive classes, one of the most prominent things I think about is exerting influence through oneself vs through others. That’s how I can view both rogues, who give to others for their benefit, and pages, who inspire others to serve them, as both passive. Obviously, there is more to your argument for active/passive roles, and more to mine as well, but anon has a character limit, so i’ll just leave you with this new angle to view the dichotomy.

Yep, depending on what elements you weigh the heaviest, Knights and Pages in particular get complicated. That’s really the only thing that throws me off in determining which is Passive and which is Active.

The reason I currently come down on Pages as Active is twofold. One, I simply think shaking up the current reading of Knights and Pages is important, because most people’s readings of Pages is really off, frankly? 

But two, when considering it this way, I keep getting tripped up by other examples. Like, Muse is the Most Passive apparently–but Alt!Calliope has her greatest impact through her own direct action by blowing up a sun. Lord is the most active, yet Caliborn and Lord English have most of their direct impact on the plot through the ways they coerce, manipulate, and influence others. What stays consistent is who benefits, regardless of method. Calliope and Alt!Calliope’s actions are basically always to the benefit of others. Caliborn’s machinations always benefit himself. 

It’s possible that’s a quirk exclusive to Master classes and there’s more to figure out about how Active/Passive works for the other classes, but for the time being I use it as a guide and consider the “For oneself” vs. “For others” habitual distinction the most important one to consider for Pages and Knights. Pages tend to benefit themselves, Knights tend to benefit others.

I’m trying to analyse the classes, but I was wondering: apart from the Infinitywhale/BKEW system are any other widely accepted systems/theories? (I’m not sure if you take questions like this so sorry if you don’t I just thought you’d be the person who has seen the most classpect theories).

Just wanted to chime in for a second about this question:

Can a player appear entirely active even if they are in a passive class?  How closely does active/passive relate to the player’s actions?  How much did Rose’s status as a Derse dreamer affect the activity/passivity of her class?  How good is Hussie’s storytelling, actually?  What else might the readers be wrong about?

Because as it happens, Hussie’s actually talked about it. I usually don’t do word of god stuff, but this particular quote is handy in exemplifying how Hussie might think about the Active/Passive dichotomy.

For reference, here is the quote:

classesandaspects:

This is a really good question!

First of all, not really.  BKEW’s system is the most popular by a wide margin.  Although that might be partially due to the fact that he serves as a very well-known figurehead. Theorists who think similarly to him will stumble onto his pages very easily and probably end up adopting the whole system, or something similar to it.  Alternate systems, on the other hand, usually share some common theories with each other but can differ widely in the specifics based on the reader’s personal interpretations.

Also, just the fact that BKEW is so popular means that any novice reader trying to get into classpect will probably see his theories first and form their own theories based on BKEW’s system.  Most of the theories I see use class/aspect concepts very similar to BKEW’s own, even if they end up at different conclusions.

Deviation from BKEW’s system is most apparent in Aspect Pairs or Aspect Duality.  (I really need to fix those tags eventually.)  Everyone knows BKEW’s aspect system:

LIGHT – VOID

SPACE – TIME

HEART – MIND

LIFE – DOOM

HOPE – RAGE

BREATH – BLOOD

and the next most common system is probably what I call the What Pumpkin system, named after the graphic that they had on their site and due to the fact that this aspect presentation tends to appear mostly in official Homestuck media:

image

BREATH – LIGHT

TIME – SPACE

MIND – HEART

LIFE – VOID

HOPE – DOOM

BLOOD – RAGE

And then there are aspect systems that differ entirely from these two. I can’t describe them all here, but I do recommend going through my Aspect Pairs/Duality tags linked above to see the ones I’ve collected so far.  Those posts almost always describe each aspect, so you can compare aspect definitions from there too.

As for classes,

(This is off the top of my head so I’m sure I’ve missed a few, but I think I got the most popular ones and haven’t been too badly biased by my own theories)

KNIGHT

  • Verb: “exploit” or “protect” (sometimes “protect/serve”)
  • -/+: contested, usually active
  • Paired with: Page (active ”exploit”), Maid (passive ”protect/serve”)

HEIR

  • Verb: “change/manipulate/control” “protect” “create” or “invite”
  • -/+: contested, usually passive
  • Paired with: Witch (passive ”change”), Mage (”create” or ”invite”), 

WITCH

  • Verb: “change/manipulate”
  • -/+: active (confirmed word-of-Huss)
  • Paired with: Heir, Sylph, Mage

SEER

  • Verb: “know” or “guide”
  • -/+: passive (confirmed word-of-Huss) but I have seen active by a few theorists*
  • Paired with: Mage (”know”) or much less commonly Maid (”guide”)

MAGE

  • Verb: “know” “invite” or “suffer”
  • -/+: usually active; passive if the theory is more centered on how shit tends to just happen to the Mage
  • Paired with: Seer (”know”), Heir (”invite” or “suffer”)

SYLPH

  • Verb: “heal/repair” “change/manipulate” “create” or “guide”
  • -/+: almost always passive
  • Paired with: Witch (passive ”change/manipulate”), Maid (passive ”create” or “guide”); I think I’ve seen Seer (active “guide”) at least once as well

MAID

  • Verb: “create” “provide” “repair” “protect” “serve” “guide”
  • -/+: usually active
  • Paired with: Sylph (active ”repair” or “guide”), Sylph or Heir (active ”create”), Knight or Heir (”protect”), Page (active ”provide” or ”serve”), Seer (active ”guide”)

PAGE

  • Verb: “provide” “serve” “grow” “exploit”
  • -/+: passive
  • Paired with: Heir (passive ”grow/change”) Knight (passive ”exploit”) Maid (passive “create” or ”serve”)

Then the classes PRINCE, BARD, ROGUE, and THIEF are usually accepted as given by Calliope in-comic.

in my experience the theorists who suggest the Seer is active are going entirely based on in-comic evidence and have not seen the word-of-Huss that confirms the Seer is passive.  (Which is really interesting to me.  Can a player appear entirely active even if they are in a passive class?  How closely does active/passive relate to the player’s actions?  How much did Rose’s status as a Derse dreamer affect the activity/passivity of her class?  How good is Hussie’s storytelling, actually?  What else might the readers be wrong about?

You could also look to the passive/active nature of the classes in making some retroactive sense of the Derse/Prospit dreamer duality. Passive/active classes are also a pretty vague thing, and don’t resolve so easily into simple dualities like defensive/offensive and such. Those are the guidelines for understanding them, but there is clearly a lot of flexibility within that system. They seem to suggest tendencies rather than absolute capabilities. Like there isn’t a rule that says a passive class could never use an offensive technique. The system is meant to be very flexible, and in the story, classes suggest a little more about a hero’s path and role in the greater quest than what their battle capabilities are.

But if we’re saying active/passive literally translates to offensive/defensive for the sake of this topic, then Derse would be very active and Prospit would be very passive. Derse’s job is to attack. Prospit’s is to defend. This seems to carry over to the roles of the dreamers too. Dave and Rose turned out to be very active players. Dave time traveling all over the place, making a fortune on stocks and such. Rose went on her crazy solo mission to break the game and fight Jack. Jade and John had more passive roles through most of that, players who were “acted upon” by other players and circumstances. John was always being led around by trolls this way and that, drifting around wherever the wind took him. Jade was especially passive for a lot of the story, spending a lot of time falling asleep (or being put to sleep) at key moments. It wasn’t until she reached god tier as a Witch (said to be a highly active class) that she became extremely active, making lots of stuff happen, rounding up planets and all that. Rose may have been a similar case, being excessively active as a Derse dreamer, but then flipping over to a passive role upon reaching god tier as a passive class.

Being from Derse means you are from a culture of offense and aggression. Being from Prospit means the opposite. You could argue that these are qualities that either rub off on the dreamers, or they are designated as those dreamers in the first place because of those qualities. You could take the view that these are innate tendencies to overcome, as seemed to be the case for Jade and Rose. Or maybe sometimes they are tendencies that are resisted, and need to be understood and embraced. As a Prospit dreamer, did Karkat struggle because he was actually passive in nature, but had a very active self image as a leader and conqueror? Was Vriska an even more extreme case of misplaced active behavior from a Prospit dreamer? These are yet more things to consider when looking at everything contributing to the hero story of an individual in this game.

So yes, a Passive player can behave Actively, and vice versa. It’s also worth noting that Calliope’s description of Active/Passive references another existential dichotomy concerned with behavior sometimes called “active” and “passive”–the Yin-Yang. 

Full disclosure: I’ve written about the implications of Yin-Yang for understanding the Active/Passive spectrum previously. While confident, I’m not married to the idea that I’m right about each pair or verb. But I do think the Yin-Yang connection itself is pretty much inarguable, and popularizing it would go a long way to improving fandom understanding of Active/Passive as a system.

hope this helps, or that you at least find it interesting!

PS: While I’m here, I feel It’s worth noting how Hussie casts doubt on the nature of Knights, leaving it pretty ambiguous as to whether the class itself is active or passive. 

Here’s the second teaser for one of the next essays, on the Steal and Serve classes! Where Roxy helps us see what it might mean to be on the Active/Passive spectrum. 

You can access this essay early by hooking up with my Patreon–otherwise you’ll be able to read it on Thursday, when I post it here! You can also talk to me about it on the Hiveswap discord and on the r/Hiveswap subreddit. And here on Tumblr, obviously 😉

Keep rising,

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Secondly how sure are you that calliope is a reliable source. She may be for the good of the kids, but she spent her time theorizing, and has admitted her theories were false, and holding back information, while simultaneously ignoring caliborn, who despite wanting to force himself to succeed, took a liking to Jake and revealed information about the page, claiming they are to serve, both serve their aspect, serve their allies, and to serve via ass kicking, and he had no quarrels with spoilers.

I’m pretty sure Caliborn’s information came from going back and reading through Calliope’s archives, if I remember right? He told Jake he did so in that conversation I believe, but I’ll have to check later.

I am completely certain Calliope is mostly reliable. She’s wrong about one thing–the Gender distributions–and those she draws from the pools of the session she has available. But Ying/Yang principles are posited to be a universal tenet of Homestuck’s reality (and many people believe our own reality too), so if Calliope is inclined to see the Class system that way, I think it’s very likely she’s right about it.

The other thing is that without being able to trust Calliope, Homestuck’s Class system really IS broken and incomprehensible. If you believe her, then suddenly it makes total sense and is absolutely fascinating and has practically limitless depth. From a writing perspective, why would Hussie go to the trouble to including all of that in logs if we were meant to completely dismiss her?

Basically I think Homestuck is a well-told story, so here where the information is delivered with care, time and attention and lines up perfectly with Homestuck’s wider themes and mechanics, I think it’s worth just taking the alien girl at her word.